Benes-Mraz Be550 Bibi G-AGSR

Dr John – Many thanks. I was just trying to get some more detail on the crash itself. Back to pestering the AAIB by the look of it.

OG

Only other useful suggestion I can make is to check the local newspapers for the area covered by White Waltham – that is the local papers for Slough, Windsor & Maidenhead – for around the date of the crash or a few days after.

Since it was a fatal crash, it probably was reported in the local press. There would have been an inquest, and possibly the Coroner’s report and verdict would have made it into the local press.

These papers are possibly on line, but, if not, should be on microfilm in Slough or Maidenhead public library. There is also, as touched on above, the related Coroner’s report into the death of the pilot. That should still exist in the archives for the Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead. If it does, there may well be eyewitness reports into the crash contained therein.

Your best bet would be the local history section. Start with http://www.rbwm.gov.uk/web/libraries_local_history.htm and/or the contact email at: [email]maidenhead.library@rbwm.gov.uk[/email] or telephone Chris Atkins on 01628 796974.

Dave

Have to disagree with you:

1 – The RAF Museum already has a P-40 fully restored to “factory fresh” condition

2 – The RAF Museum may well have to “blow the budget” (presuming that they actually have one…) simply to get this P-40 safely home to the UK. It could be many years – if ever – before funds could be found to restore it to factory fresh condition, let alone airworthy.

3 – Airworthy aircraft can fly, and if they can fly, they can be destroyed in a crash. Surely it would be the cruellest irony for an aircraft to survive for 70 years, only to be destroyed in a crash on take off during its first post-restoration flight? (And that HAS happened to some aircraft…)

P-40 from Sahara

If the RAFM does successfully acquire it, it will be interesting to see what they do with it.

I very much hope that they leave it is an “as found” condition.

There’s an argument that this P-40 is in effect, a “war grave” and a memorial to the last pilot who flew it. To restore it to “factory fresh” condition would be, to me anyway, very much like the desecration of a war grave.

Also, since there is worldwide publicity of the discovery, most people going to the RAF Museum to view this P-40 would expect to see it “as it was on the TV”

My hope is that IF and/or when it is put on dsplay at the RAFM, it becomes for them what, say, the Elgin Marbles are to the British Museum. To be blunt, a “tourist attraction”.

Some may not be comfortable with that thought, but anything that raises the profile of the RAFM, and gets it more visitors, surely has to be a good thing!

The ITN News report that was broadcast yesterday is now online at http://www.itv.com/news/2012-05-11/lost-and-forgotten-wwii-fighter-found-in-egyptian-desert/

Just to quote one line from the report

“The war moved on and he was forgotten as was the aircraft but it’s not too late in a way to close that story off.”

– AIR VICE MARSHALL PETER DYE, RAF MUSEUM

Terry J/David Burke:

Thanks for your quick answers! Let’s hope that the recovery of this aircraft does not get mired in legal wrangling over the “rights of ownership” and who is the “rightful” owner. Since the discovery of this P-40 has “gone viral”, this is now a pretty valuable piece of metal. Perhaps someone, somewhere, is expecting a considerable payment for its recovery and return. So the question of “rightful ownership” is now a vital and lucrative one.

To put it into context, the RAFM’s “current” P-40 was apparently worth exchanging for two gate-guardian Spitfires: and you know how much a Spitfire (even a non-flyer) is worth…

Also, I hope that the RAF Museum already has funding in place for recovery of this aircraft, because it is not going to be quick, cheap, or easy!

By the way, as a p.s., this is highly relevant: http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/collections/aircraft/aircraft-history/1994-1347-A%20Curtiss%20Kittyhawk%20FX670.pdf

It is the background story to the P-40 that the RAF Museum currently have, painted up in the markings of a No 112 Squadron Kittyhawk, FX760/GA-? (as seen on News At Ten last night)

There are similarities and parallels to the P-40 under discussion here – although the RAFM’s “current” P-40 came from the jungles of New Guinea instead the desert sands of Egypt.

If you read the text on the RAF Museum document, it goes into details as to how their “current” P-40 was identified (it’s a complex composite of several airframes), quote:

“However, in 2002 contact was made with Australian P-40 researcher Buz Busby, who suggested where on the airframe to look for i.d details. Study of the airframe at Stafford found the number 1673 faintly stamped on the lower left longeron. This is the Customer Sequence number, indicating the aircraft fuselage is from a P-40N-15CU, USAAF serial 42-106101, Constructor’s number 29863, RAAF serial A29-556.”

What has done, and is described above, should be re-done for the P-40 in Egpyt to give a definitive ID.

P-40 from Sahara

Is she actually RAFM property, or will she be transferred?

That is actually a very good point! Since, according to the earlier discussions on this thread, if the P-40 in question does turn out to be the one we think it is (ET574), then it was purchased from the manufacturer by H.M.G (His Majesty’s Government).

So, strictly speaking, the P-40 remains the property of the British Government, who purchased it, and, by extension, the Royal Air Force, who operated it. (If it were lend-lease, then the US Government may have a claim to ownership, if bought with US Taxpayers dollars…)

The airframes in the RAF Museum at Hendon were – and in some cases still are – RAF Property. Some of them were given “M” (maintenance serials), making them, in theory at least “Struck off charge as Cat.5(G/I)” – grounded instructional or display airframe.

If you check the detailed histories of the aircraft at RAFM Hendon on the website, you will see this.

For example, Vulcan B.2 XL318:

“17 Dec 81 Declared non-effective aircraft as Cat.5 (display) and allocated 8733M.

4 Jan 82 Formally allocated to RAF Museum; preparation for dismantling and transport to Hendon begun by team from AS&T Flight, RAF Abingdon. Aircraft defuelled, drained and vented 4-6 Jan 82. Dismantling underway at Scampton by the end of Jan 82

11 Feb – Delivered in sections by road to Hendon and temporarily stored 9 Mar 82 in the Museum car park pending construction of the Bomber Command Hall”

In the case of the P-40 we are discussing, I would expect the same procedure: formally declared a non-effective airframe, given an “M” serial number, then transferred to RAF Museum ownership.

HOWEVER, as the P-40 in question was presumably Struck off Charge in July 1942 as “missing” then HMG and the RAF relinquished their claim of ownership almost 70 years ago. So it is a good question – who (if anyone) “owns” an abandoned aircraft?

It may be the case that this P-40 will have to be (temporarily) taken back on charge by the RAF again, so that it can be formally disposed of as “Cat.5(G/I) – transferred to RAF Museum Hendon” and given, for administrative purposes, an “M” serial number…

The Daily Mirror is running the story at http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/lost-world-war-ii-plane-827855

As to whether (or not) Dennis Copping was the pilot, you have to allow for the media’s preferred angle of “Hero Pilot survives crash only to walk to his death in the lonely desert”

The papers would prefer to put a name to the pilot, even if there is only circumstantial (and not 100% proof) of evidence to identify him.

Same with the discovery: the media is longing for an “Indiana Jones and the lost Warbird” angle, hence preferring to name an individual as discovering the airframe, when it was a team effort.

P-40 from Sahara

Itv here didn’t mention any recovery.

It was the last “and finally…” item on the ITN 6:30 news (at least here in the ITV London area). Reporting by Neena Nanau, featuring an interview with Peter Dye of the RAFM, largely in front of the P-40 at the RAF Museum in Hendon, along with the pictures already posted here, and the youtube footage out there on the web.

(Just been watching it – albeit one hour later on the ITV+1 channel…)

ETA: The item was also repeated at the end of News At Ten (10:00-10:30 today)

It should be on the ITN website for a limited time at http://www.itv.com/news/

If you mean “recovery” and not “DIScovery”, then you’re correct. There was a line in the report about “the race is on to recover the plane…”which implies that it is still where it was found at the present time.

At least, now the “word is out” about the P-40, it may well make people aware that it would be more valuable as a complete airframe, and hopefully deter the locals from tearing it apart as a source of “free” scrap metal.

I’m sure that I am not the only one who will only breathe a sigh of relief when I see this P-40 hoisted on a crane in a container at Alexandria, bound for the UK…