RayRCan’t give up your bickering can you?
Hopefully there wont be any more provocative comments such as these.
Originally Posted by Jazzman
Why are Indians, who consider themselves to be a borderline superpower, so fixated with Pakistan, a country 10 time smaller than theirs? Secondly, don’t you guys have anything better to do in life. Such loosers. 😡
RayROriginally posted by Jazzman
This is not to go off on a tangent but to reinforce the contention that Pakistan faces an enemy that is 7 time bigger than itself therefore its goals and process for indigenous militilary manufacturing capability are very different from that of India and its contribution to the JF17 has to be seen in that context. As far as what is Pakistan’s specific contribution to the JF17 project you have to realise that Pakistan does not have civilian aviation industry. Unlike HAL, PAC is not a civil organization and it is subject to military guidelines on dessimation of information. So whatever you hear on the discussion forums is all heresay
As far i as see,most people realises all these.
The only thing that has been confirmed officially is the size of the project in $ terms and the fact that Pakistan is a 50% partner.Also JF17 is JV between the goverment of Pakistan and China
I would like to see that confirmatory source.
You may want to gloat on the fact that Pakistan’s R&D is not at the level of India
Who is gloating?where?
you will have to agree that Pakistan gets more bang for its buck
How so?
you will have to agree that Pakistan gets more bang for its buck and proof of that is that for the last 60 years not only it has survived despite all that epitaphs written about it but in the process it has made India’s life pretty miserable
1.”Pakistan has survived despite all epitaphs written about it?”
2.”It has made India’s life miserable”
And these two reasons are the proof of Pakistans more “bang for buck”,is it??No wonder there is no evidence of Pakistans involvement beyond funds or personnel as adviced by pakistani users “in this forum” or elsewhere.
So stop this childish back and forth
Originally Posted by Jazzman
Why are Indians, who consider themselves to be a borderline superpower, so fixated with Pakistan, a country 10 time smaller than theirs? Secondly, don’t you guys have anything better to do in life. Such loosers. 😡
THIS comment from you wasnt much mature,was it?
Look Jazzman,the question was about the JF17 and where more appropriate than the PAF thread,and a simple question at that.Instead of any straight forward answers being given,various other topics like the LCA,the indian aviation industry,Indian contribution to the MKI,Bison etc etc which had no relation with the JF17 were brought in.I cannot see how you can hold any Indian member responsible for bringing up these subjects.
While it has been acknowledged by all the members repeatedly that the JF17 was the biggest thing going on for the Pakistani aviation industry,but this attempt by some of the members to compare the JF17 programme with the LCA and how superior it is and the huge amount of its involvement vis a vis the Indian involvement with its projects(without any proof), is uncalled for.
RayRSukhois ‘splash’ UK Tornados over Gwalior
GWALIOR: IAF pilots flying their ‘top-gun’ Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jets are developing a habit of simply outgunning their rivals. After ‘splashing’ F-15Cs and F-16s, they have now blown the British Tornados out of the clear blue skies.
Though neither IAF nor Royal Air Force were scrambling to thrash the other in Indra-Dhanush air combat exercise, fighter boys will remain fighter boys, eager to notch up ‘kills’ even if they are achieved in mock battles.
“The British should have brought their new Euro-fighter Typhoons. The Tornado-F3 air defence fighters were no match for our Sukhoi-30MKIs, which performed exceptionally well in BVR (beyond-visual range) combat,” said an IAF pilot.
With a comprehensive package of super-manoeuvrability and firepower, the two-seater Sukhoi-30MKIs were a cut above the rest in the just-concluded 10-day joint exercise, the first such held between India and UK in 43 years.
“Sukhoi-30MKI is our golden goose. We don’t want to expose all its eggs to even friendly forces. We did not exploit its spectrum of capabilities. For instance, we did not open all operating modes of its radars,” said a senior IAF officer.
But what was shown was enough to dazzle the visitors. “All our pilots who flew in Sukhoi-30MKIs came out with silly smiles on their faces.
But the Typhoon, is an absolutely superb plane and we would like to operate it against Sukhoi-
30MKI, probably next year,” said RAF strike command’s chief of operations, Air Vice-Marshal Christopher N Harper.
IAF pilots, got some hard lessons from RAF about how to operate in an AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) environment. Indian Mirage-2000s, MiG-27s and MiG-21 ‘Bisons’ found the Tornados, aided by real-time information about approaching targets from E3D Sentry AWACS to be more than a handful.
This, emphasised AVM Harper, was necessary if the need arises in the future for joint operations against a common enemy in these “uncertain times”. “Today, we don’t know where the next conflict will crop up. Airpower has many roles to play, even in counter-terrorism,” he said.
IAF Central Command deputy-chief Air Marshal K D Singh, in turn, said: “The biggest learning experience for us were the AWACS. Our fighter controllers flew in them. We have to learn how to exploit them since we will get three of our own next year.”
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2171142,curpg-2.cms
RayRWhy are Indians, who consider themselves to be a borderline superpower, so fixated with Pakistan, a country 10 time smaller than theirs? Secondly, don’t you guys have anything better to do in life. Such loosers. 😡
Dont know why Indians do it,but dont u think sometimes things should be put in their proper places?
Originally posted by Nick_76
Check your geography Monsignor! As far as I know Myanmar has not rejoined the Indian federation to recreate pre-independence India for a 10X Pak issue..!
LOLOL!!
RayRDESPITE BEING ANSWERED A NUMBER OF TIMES ?! :diablo: You guys skirt around the question ALL the time !!
Answer in SPECIFICS, exactly WHAT work did Pakistan do except for sending a dozen engineers and later on test pilots and laying down the specifications for the JF-17..what systems, what knowledge ?!? :rolleyes:
your ridiculous claim is akin to a guy going to a tailor and specifying what he wants and then claiming that he himself tailored it/or is the part-tailor since he told the tailor what he wanted the suit to look like…
WHAT??u want SPECIFICS??Didnt u hear somebody’s “chacha” said so. 😀
RayRboth of you are always welcome..
i’m seriously wondering if MKI can match EF provided both have AESA which is under developement and larger composites as newer batch have sertain improvements.one thing also to note if IAF goes for Rafale Meteor is sure to come , in that case it’ll be interesting Rafale + Meteor combined with MKI + Brahmos….. 😛
that will be a strike mission.
RayRAnother nugget from the above report
The two tests which went awry were caused by “human error” and “a technical malfunction”, not due to any systems failure.
RayRIt was not Boeing but Lockheed Martin, which violated its contractual proviso by retaining all the Indian documentation, as well as the prototype DFCC (Digital Flight control computer) which was being tested at a rig in L&M.
India subsequently replaced this with another unit (by its team locally) and created a core team for checking and validating the LCA FBW. Since they no longer had access to the US FBW Vista, they now used the LCA simulator to monitor each & every part of the flight performance, and verifying the code. The US sanctions set the LCA program back by 3 years approximately.
Wow isnt it the same Lockheed Martin thats now a competitor for the MRCA?Hopefully the world is not round.
RayRWhile my original question was as simple as the amount of indigenous pakistani components in the JF17,a lot of discussion about a myriad of topics like the abilities of the Indian aviation industry vis a vis the Pakistani aviation industry has been done.The figures provided by Harry
India’s aerospace industry ( 11 indigenous aircraft types entered service, 2 drones, 14 types under license, 3550+ aircraft and 3600 engines manufactured, 8150 aircraft and 27300 engines overhauled, 3 new types in advanced testing, space vehicles, blah blah) with Pakistan which has none?
really put those things into perspective.
And while the original response was
Phrozenflame:search its all there in the forum
Redgriffin:”Truth being we were involved in it as well as the Thunder to a very large extent” and “Hell my own chacha was involved”
the discussion clearly fails to shows the amount of involvement of the Pakistani aviation industry except for funds,personnel and may be some design expertise.While nobody is arguing that the JF17 is the next biggest thing w.r.t. Pakistani Aviation industry still one is to come across any evidence of having any indigenous Pakistani components/subsystems in the aircraft.
Ironic as that may seem the response given by one of them above are in that sense true because even after searching the forum there isnt any evidence of what has been asked.
RayRThanks Tango III and joey.
What i gathered is while for IAF there’s a huge scope to learn for the RAF its more of evaluation of the russian aircrafts and to some extent this will help in case of any joint international operations.
I think the MKI can match the EF.But then there’s the question of the meteor.
RayRX post from BR
India says no to British Harriers
New Delhi, Oct 13 (IANS) The Indian Navy has declined to buy eight British Sea Harrier FA.2 fighter jets that were phased out of the Royal Navy in March this year.
According to a report in the October issue of the defence magazine India Strategic, the eight Harriers, which were also the last to serve the Royal Navy, were on offer but without some vital components like missiles and the Blue Vixen fire control radar. The prime consideration was to use them to train pilots and to fill in the gaps caused by the loss of six Harriers in the Indian Navy due to accidents spread over more than 20 years.
Indian Navy pilots and defence ministry representatives inspected and assessed the aircraft for technical and financial evaluation but it was decided not to go in for them as the jets needed considerable expense in upgrading their avionics and arming them.
Published reports indicate that India has 22 Sea Harriers, 16 of them being the FRS.51 fighter version. They are to be gradually replaced by MiG-29K aircraft, some 40 to 50 of which are likely to be acquired from Russia.
India has already contracted to buy 16 MiG-29Ks as part of the deal with Russia to acquire the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, renamed INS Vikramaditya, but more such aircraft would be needed as the Indian Navy grows to its required size and capability.
As for the Royal Navy Harriers, the Indian Navy was initially enthusiastic, but then felt that “devoid of their offensive systems, they wouldn’t be of much use”. For training “the navy is already considering either the BAe Hawks or Boeing/BAe Goshawks”, a source said.
Indian Navy pilots are now being given advanced carrier takeoff and landing training at the US Navy’s Pensacola facility to prepare them for the arrival of Gorshkov and MiG-29Ks.
This had become necessary as ironically, the Russians were unable to offer matching training facilities although they sold both the aircraft carrier and the MiG-29K jets.
Harrier jets played a decisive and proven role in the Falklands crisis of 1982. The last naval variant, the FA.2, was armed with US AIM 20 AMRAAM (advanced medium range air-to-air missile) and the Ferranti ARI.50019 Blue Vixen radar that enabled it to engage four targets simultaneously.
India had decided to buy the Harriers in the mid-1970s as part of its efforts to build a blue water navy, while their actual deliveries began in 1983.
The Indian Navy’s 16 Sea Harrier FRS.51 fighter versions are now under a midlife upgrade with new air-to-air missiles as well as helmet-mounted target acquisition sights.
The Indian Navy Harriers originally were equipped with the Ferranti Blue Fox radar that had poor “look-down” capability compared to the Blue Vixen of the British Navy.
The Indian Navy plans to use the Sea Harriers till around 2020.
Engines for Indian Sea Harriers were supplied by Rolls Royce while the aircraft have been maintained and upgraded – as prime contractor – by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).
–By Gulshan Luthra
http://www.teluguportal.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17433
RayROriginally posted by Golden Arrow
It is intended to form a base for the Pakistani aviation industry.
How will it form a base for the Pakistani aviation industry since except for contributing money and personnel and some design expertise(?) it does not contribute anything?No original research and development or any indigenous components,subsystems have gone into this.How can you form a base without original R&D?
The JF-17 is not a variant but a cooperative design which can have different engine, radar and avionics suites according to availabity and need in two separate countries. It’s an open ended design project that when set up in Pakistan will allow that nation to do as with it as it pleases. This is very different from the two Flanker licensed manufacture projects we mentioned.
What Pakistan can and most probably will do is to replace the chinese systems in the JF 17 with western systems may be manufactured locally under licence since they havent been able to develop any components of their own.
But in case of the MKI a lot of indigenously researched ,developed and manufactured products have gone into it.
So in case of MKI its more of a co-development(since the MKI wouldnt be in the present form without its indigenous components),but in case of JF17,its more or less a licensed manufacture with some degree of customization based on Pakistans need.
RayR[QUOTE=Nick_76]
A nice distraction (having replied to your statements)- but lets return to the JF-17:
Even now, despite being asked to “search on the forum, its all there”- we have NO EVIDENCE of any sort of substantial Pakistani contribution to the JF-17 bar, of course funding.
All you can come up with- is that if Pakistan were to do so, it would fail, because our neighbour is a failure, so Pakistan is correct. Lets not be so juvenile. Nor has the cash its neighbour has invested been “thrown away”- it has done so to generate a business benefit as is evident from the amount of firms that are currently involved in similar ventures & are substantially helping the Indian economy with.
I fully agree that the JF-17 is good for Pakistan to some limited degree, I was just pointing out what an apples to orange comparison it is, to compare licensed assembly to an ab-initio development, and call it either equivalent to the latter or “co-development”.
In the meanwhile, we still dont have anything on what Pak has done in the JF-17 program, technologically substantial that is.
So lets not divert from that by throwing mud at India, albeit without naming it directly (how clever!)- the question was & is- what has Pak contributed to the JF-17?
Yup.Thats precisely it.Excellent post.
RayRIndigenous production of the JF-17 will lead to major strides in Pakistan’s aviation capabilities. It’s approach is correct – learn to walk before you run – or you fall flat on your face – like others amply demonstrate.
And taking your above analogy it appears that Pakistan is not attempting to learn walking at all but is taking a joyride on the chinese parambulator.
RayRoriginally posted by CAT1
If you have any doubt about the logic of the post or remain ‘unconvinced’ perhaps you can compare the progress of this project with that of some other developing country which may well have tried to contribute its own engine, avionics, radar – and the cost overuns, delays and interim solutions that resulted in – can we think of any examples?
Any ground work that is being done now is preparing the base for launching the fifth generation aircraft.
OTOH pakistan seems to have placed all its eggs in the China basket.any PAF plans for a indigenous fifth generation a/c?or do they too go into the China basket?
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