inkYes…it was nice when we no longer shared a border…
You people
You could also help your case by at least trying to hide your very obvious prejudices. Frankly kind of language (“you people”) verges on racism and I am reporting you to the moderators for causing offense.
Same as what I said…
No it isn’t – learn to read and take your blinkers off.
You just said it above…I clearly said…as a GDP PERCENTAGE it is being reduced.
No it isn’t being reduced. It was reduced to 2.5% and now it will remain stable.
Well if he’s going to be throwing things around that make no sense…I might as well explain things to him.
Its got nothing to do with Slobo – stop pretending.
Hmm…25% for “equipping, construction and research”…I hope you realise that is VERY different from what I said above it…
It is not all that different and we both know it.
As I said the brakdown provided in your list is too vague to make anything out of it…
And this is precision itself I’m sure:
Now…in NATO countries as well as in PfP countries defense budgets are usually divided about 40-50% for salaries, 25-35% for maintanance, infrastructure and such, and about 25% for equipment purchases.
I’d think finding 10 millions for 5 MiG-29s after several years…wouldn’t be much of a problem…and wouldn’t require that army property be sold off and money be set aside from them for just this purpose.
You forgot to reply to that one…
The ‘equipping’ budget is clearly not only for the air force and it clearly is not only intended for purchasing weapons. Whats your point?
———-
I’m not here to paint a dark picture of Serbian Army…
Could have fooled me.
they do a good enough job of that themselves.
Could have fooled me – again. Serbia has experienced amazing turmoil since the fall of the Berlin wall. The state it belonged to fell appart violently. Strict economic, cultural and diplomatic sanctions emposed in 1992 were never completely removed until 2000. In 1993-1994 Serbia experienced hyper-inflation worse than ever experienced by any country in history (including Weimar Germany). In 1996-97 Serbia experienced some of history’s longest strikes and demonstrations during a period of significant political unrest. In 1998-99 a part of Serbia’s territory was subject to a violent seperatist movement and Serbia was bombed by the most powerful nations on the planet for 78 days (NATO used nearly 40% of their front-line assets apparently). Then in 2000 Serbia experienced a revolution that may not have been violent but certainly was damaging to the economy. Taking these factors into consideration I would say that Serbia’s military is doing amazingly well. Countries in the region with a much more positive, easier recent history (lets take Croatia for e.g.) are struggling almost as much.
I’m here to hopefully put an end to the very ridiculous and crazy discussions that ALWAYS go on when Serbs talk about their army.
Kapedani, Slobo has already embarrassed you enough by posting your wildly optimistic claims about Albania’s army for your ‘level-headed’ opinion to hold any weight whatsoever. You are in no position to put an end to anything.
inkAnyways another Mig-21 two seater photo from Batajnica.
Good one Djnik!
inkFirst of all I don’t see this on the Serbian MoD website…I don’t see anything as far as budget is concerned…nor this 730 million figure either…from what I’v read it was supposed to be much smaller than that.
Check out the White Paper pdf – page 44.
The defense budget previously was far too high for Serbia to maintain…its a drain on the economy…and is actually being reduced accordingly as a percentage of GDP. This was 3.3% of GDP in 2004, 2.9% in 2005 and 2.5% in 2006. Even an expenditure of 2.5% is too large in my opinion…but as you can see it is going down becasue it is UNMAINTAINABLE…which is what I’v been saying all along…you can have a good army if you don’t have toilet paper maybe. It was 8% up until 2000…image the strain on an economy with such an idiotic expenditure!!
Previous defense budgets are not the topic of discussion. Besides, the high expenditure on defense was mostly to do with the fact that during the years 1991-95 and 1998-99 Serbia was in a much less stabe security environment (and also had a much smaller budget due to sanctions and corruption). Also you will notice that since 2004 the budget has been very significantly reduced – this fits perfectly with past announcements of ministers of defense and with a steady policy of downsizing*. In any case – the past is not very relevant for this discussion.
The budget isn’t going to be going UP…its going to be going DOWN…becasue even the current levels are unmaintainable…and this will be associated with deep cuts and lots downsizing…becasue otherwise it is unmaintanable.
Is that information just imagined or do you actually have any real sources? Check out the defense white paper.
(and just to get this out of the way becasue I know Slobo is going to jump in here and say “but Albania bla bla bla”…out defense expenditures right now as % of GDP are actually about 1.3%…becasue well…there are other priorities besides making generals rich…and by 2010 its planned to go up to 2%. Do the math…it eventually ends up about as much as you have now…for an army with far less expenditures…which means far more money per soldier)
Yea yea, you’re bringing Albania into this because of Slobo – whatever. We all know you can’t wait to compare the two countries… Its your favourite thing to do. :diablo:
Now…in NATO countries as well as in PfP countries defense budgets are usually divided about 40-50% for salaries, 25-35% for maintanance, infrastructure and such, and about 25% for equipment purchases.
You’ll notice that the 548 million dollars spent on Salaries and Regular Activities amounts to approximately 75% of the budget total – leaving approx 25% for equipping, construction and research.
* A little note on the downsizing of the army and the defense budget. Serbia experienced a revolution in 2000 and a new government with new ideas came into power. The army high command was, however, still full of Milosevic era officers who resisted attempts by the government to move closer to the EU, join partnership for peace, extradite suspected war criminals to the hague etc. The government, especially under Djindjic (unitl 2003 more or less) attempted to purge the army high command and to take power away from the military in general. Hence the defense budget plummeted from 900+ million in 1999 to ~780 million in 2003 and there were many changes in the MoD and the high command. Now that the army is completely back in line and the Milosevic era officers have been retired the budget start to be increased again because the government can again rely on the cooperation of the military. Further to this, the World Bank and IMF have been supporting the Djindjic government in its attempts to win control of the army and have been putting pressure on the Ministry of Finance to reduce the budget. These pressures have largely been reduced now and the IMF and Wrold bank are happy to allow a step-by-step increase (although they do still advice the Ministry of Finance on how much money should be allocated to the defense budget – hence the 2.5% figure).
**********************
Frankly Kapedani, you’re just a little too determined to paint a pessemistic picture of everything Serbian and it brings into question every single thing you say. If you made any attempt to be a little bit more objective then your points might carry some more weight. Ever said anything nice about Serbia? Not just on this board but at any time in your life?
inkThe ‘thisisacopyofthatandvicaversa’ argument is getting kind of old now… And more than a little banal. Obviously aircraft designers are influenced by what went before, whether it was in their own country or not, this should go without saying as it occurs in every field from medicine to photography.
inkBut maybe if you put it CAPTIAL letters it makes it true I guess…
I shall remember you said that. Hopefully that will make you stop using capitals on such a regular basis (it gets on my nerves).
Inks stats?? I said 80%…and that came from a statement made by Serb officials about their defense expenditures…and from what Ink writes…that is not only more than likley…it has to be. Way more than half the budget goes to salaries and “regular activities”. What about toilet paper??
Sure, the Serbian MoD blows 248 million bucks on toilet paper each year and the 118 million ‘equipping’ budget goes on pots and pans… Give me a break.
The reality is that most of the ‘regular activities’ budget goes on fuel and ammunition and spare parts for trucks, electricity etc. The deployments in the security zone around the Kosovo border must also eat into that part of the budget. So, if the army runs all by itself on 548 million a year – then everything else (USD185million) is left over for “other things”. Next year the “other things” budget is slated to be 207 million. The year after that it should be 220 million (the regular activities and personel salaries parts are to go up too).
inkThis isn’t telling us anything…equipping means a lot of things and includes a lot of things.
Indeed ‘equipping’ could mean a lot of things, replacing worn out equipment for example. Or buying uniforms, kitchen equipment, computers etc. Thats beside the point however as I cited these figures to demonstrate that 80% of the budget does not go on salaries and that some money is left over for procurement and for “other things”. Next year the ‘equipping’ budget is projected to be USD134million and the year after that it will be USD140million. Surely some of that is to be used to procure new weapons.
inkInk…yes he said there is need. What is said in one sentance…is very different from what can be achieved.
But surely the very fact that he’s talking about it means that it isn’t the complete fantasy that exists only in the minds of members of this forum.
How much does this leave for all the other needed things…and then how much is left over for new procurements???
According to the Serbian MoD (all figures for 2006 in millions 2004USD):
Total military budget = 730
Personnel salaries = 300
Regular activities (training and suchlike, I assume) = 248
Construction = 61
Equipping = 118
Scientific and Research work = 6
you people
Less of that thank you.
by 2010…whe our budget will be as big as yours now.
Yea sure, because Serbia’s economy isn’t expected to grow at all. In fact the nation’s GDP is expected to be (2004)USD34billion.
MiG-29M2s?? Not even a production model to begin with…and offered to Austria to pay off debt…which is why the low price. Russia doesn’t owe you any debt…you owe her.
Just because they were offered in exchange for debt doesn’t mean that the price per airframe stated was not realistic. Surely it would be in Russia’s interests to make the M2 seem as expensive as possible so that they would have to give Austria fewer airframes in exchange for the debt. So that the price offered in a debt exchange scheme should, theoretically, be inflated and not reduced.
inkBTW, I also think that neither Croatia or Serbia should invest that kind of money just for the fun of having modern fighters, but regretebly I’m not to decide.
I don’t think either Croatia or Serbia should buy fighters just for the fun of it either. Certainly Serbia is in a security and defense situation which requires it to have at least some modern aircraft to call upon. See the four points I mentioned above.
inkSu-30s weren’t suitable…but MiG-29M2 is?? And the cost for them?? Hmm…almost as much as Su-30.
I mentioned the M2 because I remember being surprised by how cheap it was when the Russians were offering it to Austria. If somebody would dig out info on how much an M2 airframe goes for I’d be very happy. Perhaps that could be your job Kapedani – would sure make you more useful than when you’re bleating on about how Serbia is going to be a stone-age country for the next hundred thousand years. :rolleyes:
Also, a squadron of modern multi-role jets can’t be that much of a fantasy if the commander of the airforce is mentioning it too:
“Having in mind the future security risks and tasks which the VS i PVO will face, our evaluation is that one squadron of multi-role planes will be able to perform those duties.”*
* My translation.
inkGallons make my head hurt 🙁 . Anyone good at imperial/metric conversions?
inkUnfortunately this doesn’t really answer my question – I don’t think the article is accurate as Russia didn’t offer Austria SMTs but M2s… Still don’t know how much they would cost. Thanks anyway Djnik.
inkWhen officially introduced into Russian service by Putin, we can speak about real operational Tu-160s again.
I’m confused, I was under the impression that the BLACKJACK was in “real operational” service. Otherwise what were they doing taking part in excercises and firing off cruise-missiles?
inkJust a quick question: Does anyone remember how much the MiG-29M2s offered to Austria were? I know the Austrians were going to get them in some sort of debt for weapons exchange but I do remember at least one article quoting the cost of the aircraft themselves.
inkFrankly I have to agree with Kapedani (this is probably a first!). Talk of Su-30s and PAK-FAs etc is wildly exaggerated and optimistic.
First of all, both of these aircraft are unsuitable (read: overkill) for our security needs. Serbia is a small country and we simply don’t need aircraft designed to operate across the vastness of countries like Russia, India and China. Some sort of new-built MiG-29 (the M2 would be a favourite) in small numbers would be much more suitable. Also, none of our neighbours are buying large numbers of fast jets, heck, Serbia’s most likely threats* (Croatia and Albania) may not even have any fast jets in their future plans. Also, Serbia does not have many distant foreign obligations that would require advanced combat aircraft – even if we had them, would we really send FLANKERs to Haiti?
In my opinion, a new look Serbian airforce** would have to fulfil the following roles:
1. Traditional air policing role, i.e. interception of peace-time incursions into the countries air space.
2. Conventional arms deterrent, i.e. be on a similar level in terms of capability as the airforces of neighbouring countries who could, in some future scenario, become threatening, in order to deter them from military solutions.
3. Be capable of supporting the army in a variety of different ways. The airforce should be able to support army or MUP actions in anti-terrorist operations as well as in conventional armed conflict should such a need arise. Under this requirement we can include all kinds of reconnaissance.
4. Provide experienced personel who could form the core of a larger force should resources and requirements arise that would facilitate the expansion of the airforce in the future.
For these roles it would be sufficient, in my opinion, to operate a squadron (or, at most, two) of modern multi-role combat aircraft which could be a potent adversary in the air and also perform precision strike missions when push comes to shove. A trainer/light combat aircraft should, if sufficiently modernised, be able to perform all weather CAS and recon missions in support of ground troops – and of course it would be used to train pilots.
It seems to me that Su-30s and PAK-FAs are simply too expensive and provide a number of capabilities that Serbia simply doesn’t need. Think smaller, simpler, more cost effective guys.
Also, any kind of military procurement is massively politically charged. If Serbia wants in to the EU it should maybe use this to its advantage. The French make aircraft don’t they? So do the Swedes I believe. May be handy buying something from them. If not, then improving links with an increasingly powerful China could be useful – could Serbia be the first export customer for the J-10? I wouldn’t mind. Anyway, even these sort of thoughts are pretty fanciful. Djink is right, its going to be years before we get anything new – maybe we should make the best of what we’ve got.
* In terms of conventional state warfare.
** If it ever materialises.
inkSemi-off-topic question:
Is Yakovlev still designing the VTOL system for the PAK-FA? Is there still going to be a VSTOL variant of the PAK-FA? Was this ever a serious proposition? Okay, thats three questions… Apologies.
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