This discussion seems to be getting to the point that limits all of these annoying “F-xx vs. Su/MiG-xx” threads, namely that unless you know the very specific (and complicated) details of the engagement there is no way to know who the ‘winner’ will be. One must factor in support assets, specific missions, pilot skill/quality, air forces involved, altitude+heading etc… It just seems impossible unless you can model the scenario in a flight sim or something – and even then…

Just a quick note:

One of the reasons the Russians might be able to quickly and cheaply design, build and test (if indeed they are able to do all this quickly and cheaply) a 5th gen fighter is that a programme of some sort has been around for some time. Many of the technologies needed are in late stages of development simply because they have been developing them for a long time for aircraft such as the Berkut and the previous LFI & MFI programmes. All I’m trying to say is that the PAK-FA doesn’t have to be designed completely from scratch.

I saw the SUKOI yesterday at le bourget doing acrobatics
he passed just over my car on landing, very impressive !
I love this plane !

Wow! How??? I thought that the show didn’t start until the 13th, as in 13-16=trade days, and 17-19=general public days… As per the web site: http://www.paris-air-show.com/

B-2s most certainly did fly over Yugoslavia (although you’re right to say that they didn’t right at the beginning – because Clarke didn’t request them right away) and considering that the air defenses were never completely destroyed it seems that the B-2s had their uses after all.

When things get desperate nothing at all is sacred in the military because you’re going after your goal right there and then – a bit of compromised technology* isn’t going to stop the commander in question throwing everything his got at the enemy of the month.

*And I have to wonder how much of a Raptor’s tech is really going to be compromised if it falls out of the sky from 15,000 feet.

Hamburger,

I was refering to the concept of “Finntourism” whereby lots of Fins get on a weekend ferry to say St Petersburg and get totally wasted once the ferry hits Russian waters and vodka is sold at Russian prices. The Russians used to wait for them with an army of wheel barrows onto which they would load the incapacitated Finns and carry them away mysteriously. I wonder what they do these days…

I believe that the theory was that a cocktail of hormones released as a gas would make enemy soldiers so sexually charged that they would struggle (and fail) to even resist one another. The intended effect would be to make them either so h0rny or so ashamed of their actions with their fellow man as to destroy their ability to fight effectively.

If the Russians fly into US airspace (i.e. anywhere outside their own borders) deliberately the US will use a range of tactical and strategic nuclear weapons in a pre-emptive strike to prevent the escalation of the security situation. :diablo:

Wouldn’t a cooperation with a foreign manufacturer be the smarter way to go – perhaps with Boeing or with a Russian design bureau? Maybe even cooperation with the Europeans on the A400… Its just that going it alone seems risky and expensive – especially as they’re going to have to go for a foreign powerplant anyway. Or maybe its just another way for China to subsidise its industry with government funds.