Arthur,

When I said “US system” I was refering to the system by which candidates are forced to campaign and all the dodgy promises and dodgy friends they have to make if they want to stand a chance.

Sounds good doesn’t it? However, I’d like to with-hold judgement on the idea until I see what kind of criteria the candidates have to meet and how campaigning is going to work… With any luck the EU will choose to deviate somewhat from the US system.

Tempest,

First of, I never even suggested that Serbian society is better than the society here in the UK (please re-read my post if you still think I did). Also, regarding your question on why I choose to live here, I am a British citizen by right of birth and while I was actually born in Yugoslavia I have lived most of my adult life here (the decision to come here was my parent’s and not mine) – the fact remains, I want to one day return to Serbia but currently London is as much my home as anywhere.

“I’m not trying to be superior to you, but to suggest that the US or the UK are not democracies is a little out of my league of understanding.”

May I suggest that this failure to understand is partly due to a lifetime of influence by western media rather than a rational attempt to comprehend what I’m trying to get across?

“Perhaps living in Serbia, as you mention you did, you have been exposed to an entirely different world view, which is why you think the media in this country is making it all up?”

As I mentioned, I have lived here almost all my adult life and have been influenced by the media here many times more than by Serbian media. I might already have pointed out that it is literally impossible to find Serbian newspapers in London – this is undoubtedly a contributory factor. Also, I have spent a lot of time in Belgrade and have many friends and relatives all over the former Yugoslavia and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that a great deal of western reporting of the situation and society of Serbia in the 90s was made up, deliberatly false, mis-understood or just plain wrong. The fact is that reporters for UK papers and news media often comment on Serbia having done little research, reading on the subject* or without even attempting to understand the situation because they know full well that 99% of their readers will not know the difference.

May I just add that during the last general election in this country I wasn’t even able to vote for the party I would have liked to vote for as they chose not to run in my constituency – not that it matters, I am unfortunate to live in a “safe seat”. Upon finding out that I couldn’t vote for my party of choice I decided to abstain… then I discovered that even if I defaced my ballot paper it wouldn’t be counted and that there was no way in which I could voice my abstention.

Mongu,

I have never read a copy of the New York Times all the way through and it has been a long time since I even saw one – from a distance. :p :p

Mate, replace “democracies” in your last paragraph with “liberal societies” and I might agree with you.

*Often the reading they might do happens to be from writers who have themselves done little research and are not qualified to be writing on the topic in the first place. Malcolm is a great example of a writer whose experience and knowledge of the region is practically irresponsible considering how important his work came to be to western opinion aboutt he Bosnian war.

Tempest,

You’ll be pleased to hear that I studied politics specifically for a year at university and that the history I have studied has also given me an increased understanding about the way political systems work. Also, as I happen to be reasonably interested in the world of politics I tend to read about it fairly often from a number of different sources. I haven’t read abything in your posts so far which suggests to me that your knowledge is superior and even if I had I would still challenge the notion that a greater knowledge about a subject like this would make your opinion somehow more valid than my own. In fact, as far as I can see we only really differ in one respect; that is that I don’t buy into the concept of a “civilized”, democratic world offset by the “uncivilized”, undemocratic world which we – i.e. the west – have to urge to convert to our system asap.
I have lived in this country through effectively 11 years of demonization of my country, my people, the society back home etc. I knew then that the view most people had of Serbia was very far removed fromt he truth and that life in Serbia was actually more or less similar to life here – better in some ways, worse in others. But what was certainly true was that Serbia was a civilized society, filled with intelligent, bright, liberal people who were as politically aware as anyone I’d met here in the west. The view from here, however, was rather different – some quite well educated people have even asked me whether we have televisions in Serbia for Christ’s sake! I’d read articles in respected newspapers which appear to be quite made up – one, in The Times, actually suggested that young people in Belgrade were forced to listen to folk music and couldn’t listen to western pop-music!! This shocking and constant mis-representation of other nations and societies by the press and politicians here (even at the highest level) has made me very wary of thinking of other nations purely along the lines of general “western” opinion. Whats more, I have a friend who is Iranian and she loves going back to Iran and can’t stop singing its praises – she’s the one I rang to find out about Time magazine and her answer is what I posted above.

Well anyway, I hope you can now understand a little more about my opinions and why I hold them.

Tempest,

“or even a copy of Time magazine “

Actually I beleive it is possible to buy a copy of Time magazine in Teheran but only in English as this magazine doesn’t print copies in Persian.

“To see if a country is a democracy it must pass the five follwing criteria, as listed on the UN Website:

1. Universal adult franchise
2. Leaders must be elected by this franchise
3. An independant judiciary
4. Equality under law
5. Freedom of information

Now you work it out if Iran is a democracy. Apartheid South Africa and Baathist Iraq both claimed to be democracies as well, what do you think?”

A few points about this comment. Firstly, a democracy isn’t neccesarily defined by points 3, 4 and 5 and some widely respected “democracies” fail to acheive these goals. Secondly, Britain doesn’t qualify as a democracy according to those principles as it fails on point 2 (nobody outside the Labour Party voted for Tony Blair – people vote for the party in their own constituency and any party is free enough to use their leader as a figurehead to get elected and then to change him/her the very next day). Thirdly, the asstoundingly disproportionate number of ethnic minorities in the US prision system and the fact that a kid wearing a “peace” t-shirt was arrested in the US suggests that the US doesn’t qualify for point 4. Furthermore, how easy is it for you to buy an Iranian newspaper in the US? I know that here in London I can’t find a single outlet selling Serbian newspapers (even ones printed in English) yet Bosnian and Croatian papers are rife – do Britain and the US really qualify for point 5? Finally, I’ll just add that the majority of the electorate didn’t vote for Labour in Britain and that the majority of actual voters didn’t vote for George Bush in the US – I know this is all according to the rules of the game but it isn’t very democratic.

Oh, damn! Just thought of something else – isn’t it illegal to teach “Darwinian principles of evolution” to school kids in Alabama? Sounds a bit, you know, “fundamentalist” to me.

Finally, I’ll just repeat that quote I posted earlier and ask you to reconsider your high-horse position:

“Fascism’s greatest evil is the beleif that one’s “system” and one’s society is superior to that of others.” – I beleive it was attributed to Charles de Gaulle during a conversation with Churchill but I can’t find the book I read it in.

Tempest,

“yet it is liberals who are Islam’s greatest supporters in the UK.
Does tolerance mean we should tolerate evil as well?”

Can you now see how I might have mis-interpreted your comments for the worse?

The fact is, I am just as opposed to the US (and western) support of terrorist groups and “terrorist-states” as I am to Islam’s support of similar groups and states.

As to your comment about fundamentalist Islam; Islam, even when taken from a fundamentalist point of view doesn’t necessarily lead to violence and terrorism. Similarly, it’s not the Jewishness of some Israelis that makes them shoot little Palestinian boys or the Christianity of some Serbs that made them kill innocent people.
These people aren’t “at war” with the US over an ideological or theological difference (whatever you may be told by either side) – they simply feel at threat and use really undesirable means to fight back. Well, thats the way I see it anyway.

Tempest,

It is because people like you equate Islam with evil that we’ve got a terrorist problem at all.

Mongu,

“Although Russia is another poor excuse for democracy and human rights, it is at least one step further along the “civilisation” ladder than Saudi.”

I’m curious to know who you put on the top of this “civilization ladder”.

And for both of you,

A little quotation I remember reading somewhere:

“Fascism’s greatest evil is the beleif that one’s “system” and one’s society is superior to that of others.” I’m afraid that I don’t remember who said that so I can’t credit it to the correct person – I’ll try to dig it up.

Rabie, Steve,

“of all the people ink is sortof how i expected him”

“Nice one!. Good to see you mate!

Rabie,

Definitely – couldnt agree more!”

I’ll take these as subtle compliments to my Balkan good looks – whether thats what they were meant as or not!;) 😉 😉