RE: Eastern Europe

You’re asking a pretty broad question there – maybe you should be more country-specific.

RE: War or no war?

>No disrespect to you in particular Ink but it’s interesting
>how many people bring up the late entry of the US into WWI
>and II. That and the fact of past US reluctance to
>participate directly in many of the so called “brush wars”
>of the cold war period, are clearly ment to imply that
>Americans are only self-serving cowards. On the other hand,
>when it suits them, these same people also accuse the US of
>”rushing to war” instead of giving diplomacy a chance.

Sauron,

I’m not trying to suggest that the US are “self-serving cowards”, nor am I suggesting that they are guilty of being war-mongers. I’m merely trying to point out that every single war they have started or been involved in has been to further their own interests in some way or another and not to save some poor downtrodden people on the other side of the world. Nothing to be ashamed of there, its the same for every other nation on the planet – its just an easily forgotten fact in this climate of “just humaritarian war” rhetoric and propaganda.

RE: War or no war?

>Ink
>
>You refer to spheres of infuence, specifically those of the
>US. I am not sure this concept explains US involvement in
>the Kosovo issue. It seems to me that the US’s reluctant to
>get involved there, suggests otherwise. I can’t see that it
>has gained any advantage, economically or otherwise for it’s
>involvment and being cast as the only bad-guy dosn’t do it
>any good either.

Well, first of all its about the export of capital – the US has given (along with the EU – they’re hardly innocent in all this) Yugoslavia loans instead of the “aid” that was promised. The loans carry the condition that they must be spent on US (or EU, depending on who’s loadn it is) goods. The of course, the loans have to be repaid with interest added on. Not to mention the fact that US companies are now allowed to advertise in English, they’re now allowed to own media outlets and TV station (and to show US products) etc etc. Laws have been passed to privatise plenty of Yugoslavia’s industrial capacity and US and EU companies will be the ones to profit from the knock down prices allocated by the puppet regime. Not to mention the fact that soon Yugoslavia will apply to join NATO and the EU and will be subject to a whole host of new restrictions and requirements which will impact not only on its economy but on its soverign status.

>As far as Iraq is concerned, I have dificulty understanding
>how so many ‘liberal’ minded nations and institutions are
>willing to let the human rights, self-determination and
>disarmament issues there, go unresolved for so long.

I see and undertsnad your point – it is a valid one. However, do not be fooled that this is what is occuring at the moment. This, I say again, is not about the rights of the Iraqi people – it never was and never will be. Which is why you’re seeing widespread opposition to it in “liberal minded” states.

>A differnt time and place, but I wonder how many people in
>Europe and North America (or anywhere else for that matter)
>would have agreed on going to war with Germany in 1939?

Its a common misconception that the western European powers (and the US) went to war with Nazi Germany in order to defend the rights of Jews and other persecuted minorities. While its true that Britain declared war after the invasion of Poland, little was done to actually reverse it or even to make it clear to Hilter that they had any intention (forget about actual capibility) of reversing it. France was shunted out of the war within a blink of an eye and Britain only began doing something “anti-German” once it was obvious that the Germans could probably invade the Islands and once their colonies in north Africa were threatened. The USA only really entered the war (except for military aid to its longtime ally) in Europe when it was clear that the Soviets had a very real chance of at least liberating themselves and quite possibly the rest of eastern Europe. It was all about the threat to the security of the western powers – apart from a public outcry and a moral boost for the troops nothing had anything whatsoever to do with down-trodden Jews or anything like that.

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-01-03 AT 09:47 AM (GMT)]Frankly scooter, if you beleive that this is about Saddam and the way he treats his own people you haven’t even glanced at any of the evidence.

RE: War or no war?

>Don’t forget Italy, Spain, Poland, Chile, Czech Rep,
>Hungary, Romania, Israel, Austria, Lithuania, Australia,
>etc. etc. (with many more to join soon)

I’m willing to bet that the populations of those countries are still significantly opposed to war (with the exception of Israel). While the US has plenty of influence with the governments of its satelite states it has little over their populations.

>Your view is not the
>majority…..Even the countries that don’t want war. The
>vast majority claim the Iraq must disarm and he obviously
>hasn’t!

How exactly do you prove you haven’t got something? Especially if the person you’re trying to convince doesn’t beleive a single thing you say.

Inspectors can’t interview scientist privately. Iraq
>says it has no WMD? Yet, tell me a country that publicly
>believes it doesn’t have WMD! Iraq had large numbers of
>weapons just 2 years ago.

4 years ago I think you’ll find.

They explain what happen to them?
>Did they just disappear in thin air??? Really……If, there
>is a war and they fine WMD after the war. What will many of
>your views then???

Even if Iraq has WMD (in significant quantities I don’t think its an excuse to kill many of it’s civilians. Would it be okay to kill Israeli, British, French, Russian, Pakistani, Indian or American people because their nations have Weapons of Mass Destruction? Re-read my post above – THIS HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH WMD!

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-01-03 AT 12:41 PM (GMT)]Vortex,

“some of those questions are very fundamental to the
American “system” and if you don’t understand it then you are bound to criticize. First
of all, the US is NOT a socialist country as in most of Europe. We believe in “liberty” as much as “rights”. “

In China (as in many nations) there is more of an emphasis on “the state” over the “individual”. The fact that you attack them for their choice of political system and the way in which their country is run isn’t very liberal. Moreover, considering people suffer and starve in even the most prosperous nation on earth it is hardly surprising that it happens in other nations.

RE: Ground Zero Extravaganza

I’m not an New Yorker, neither am I an American so my opinion has little/no value but here it is anyway:

Why don’t they just re-build the trade-centre just as used to be. This to me seems like the most defiant and proper reaction available. It wouldn’t offend anyone’s architectural sensebilities and also, it would restore the NY skyline to the one we all know and love.

RE: War or no war?

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-01-03 AT 05:36 PM (GMT)]My dear Vortex,

>Please ink, not again. How many times i have to pound it
>into your head that the US had no interests in the
>Balkans….it was the damn Europeans (especially France and
>Germany, ironically) constantly demand the US to live up to
>the NATO committments and that they see the issues in the
>Balkans as a serious precursor to future escalation.

No matter how many times you explain it I still won’t think what you’re saying is worth a damn. Vortex, my dear fellow, I respect your much valued contribution to this forum when discussing the coanda effect or other aviation relevant topics but when it comes to politics you are a dud. The fact is that prior to ’99 Yugoslavia was pretty much the only nation in Europe which was not applying to be a member of NATO and which was decidedly “Eastern” leaning. Now, following the bombing Yugoslavia has NATO troops based on its territory, the largest US Army base in Europe on its territory, allows US aircraft to fly through its air-space in order to attack Iraq without question, aplies for PfP and NATO membership and generally does everything the US asks of it (and thats all without mentioning the economy and trade!). The fact is that the US has benefited significantly from the change of government which they brought about (with considerable help from their EU “allies”). Yugoslavia has moved from one shpere of influence to another and I knew it would. The fact is that the more countries in the US sphere of influence the better for the US; more control in UN, more economic stability, more security, more control, more power, more money, more freedom etc etc. Now tell me that the US gave a damn about 5,000 dead Albanians and thats why they went to war.

EDIT: Also, a couple of questions: How many people are starving and living on the streets like stray dogs in the US? What is the proportion of whites and non-whites in US prisons? Whats the gap between rich and poor like in the US? What ethnicity are the poor people in the US and what ethnicity are the rich in percentages? Which country is the richest, most powerful in the world?

Finally: How many UN resolutions have the US vetoed concerning Israeli occupations? How many resolutions have they simply ignored? How many civillians have the US killed in “just” wars since 1990?