benroethigMind you, he is very ‘Anti-RAF’, I got the impression that he was fighting two wars in 1982 when I read his book, seemed he disliked the RAF more than he did the Argies. If I remember correctly he was even against the RAF getting the Typhoon & I believe he said something along the lines of, the Harrier would be a better choice…Now the Harrier is a great little airplane that punches above its weight…But c’mon.
But I agree and stand by what I said & quoted about the Harrier during the Falklands, it was, probably-IMO, a valuble asset that played the biggest part in winning the war. Its alright saying, ‘oh if we had Phantoms & Buccs on the Island in the first place this wouldn’t have happened blah blah blah’, but the simple fact of the matter is, they weren’t on the islands’. I believe Dave Morgan thought the same too, whom of which at the time was on loan-if you like-from the RAF…And I kind of like him more than I do Sharky, at least he showed a abit of respect. *Sorry I’m on a rant on the last bit* 😮
RAF has earned some of the bad will against it.
benroethigIt seems as if the Falklands War has been a disaster for the Royal Navy. The war itself was won, but the requirements of that particular war and the deficiencies it exposed seem to have dominated fleet planning and ship design in the navy since then, with the unfortunate result that there are too many largely single-purpose big ships. This type of fleet can be sustained only by a wealthy superpower, which Britain no longer is.
The Royal Navy would be better off, IMHO, aiming for a fleet of 3 to 6 ~30,000 ton capital ships that are multipurpose carrier/LHA/LHD type ships, along the lines of the BPE/Canberra class. They may not have the ‘sortie generation rate’ of the CVFs, but (a) they would not be as expensive; (b) there would always be at least two available; and (c) if you really need to invade some serious opponent’s country, then send two or three of these ships to provide the required air power.
Just a thought….
On the contrary, it showed the opposite. The cost cutting measures led to a situation where lives were lost and despite the perception as some kind of grand victory, the argies were a few unexploded bombs away from essentially decimating the combat capability of the royal navy. If the less than stellar capabilities of the SHAR weren’t there, it would have been a blood bath. No matter how good you think your AAW ship is, it will never be as good in defending against an air attack as a fighter…and whatever you do don’t send those AAW ships into service with an obsolete radar in order to save money.
benroethigFor me the bottom line is does the UK have enough funds to stand up the FAA under RN control – or pilots?
The RN/FAA needs the RAF online for CVF to function properly.
The RAF won’t let it function properly.
benroethigThe Italian and Spanish Carriers can only ever operate STOVL aircraft. They do not have an angled deck for recovery or length to to be able to recover.
Not like an axial ship has ever been converted with one.
benroethigThe IAI-HAL Naval Rotory UAV Schematics
So, its an unmanned Chetak?
benroethigSo the F18 is already “there” while the Rafale needs 90kN engines to compete? I call BS on that one.
I’m sure there are currently more radar modes on the SH but besides that WTF are they on about?
Either the US put political pressure to secure an order, or the UAE went to the US to put pressure on Dassault to lower their bid.
Nic
Or they just have had enough with the French.
benroethigYeap the X-35B proved the concept to with the JSF competition. With hindsight i suppose they should have really looked at then using the X-35B’s to develop the F-35B STOVL flight evelope. Although the F-35B is a different aircraft the basics would be the same and issues like the heat footprint, parts reliability and tolerances could have been determined earlier. Too late now….:mad:
Would have definitely given somewhat of an idea towards reliability, but then again the final aircraft is 6000lb heavier to say nothing of ordnance.
benroethigtoo ugly
And a demonstrator. While somewhat combat capable, unlike the X-35, its a long way from becoming an F-32.
benroethigObi Wan is spot on. Cancellation of CVF01, CVF02 or both, will, apart from wrecking the whole basis of the Royal Navy, destroy our military ship building industry. Without the CVF programme there are no orders, it’s as simple as that. I consider ship building to be a strategically vital industry for our island nation, and any government which cannot see that is dilletante in the extreme.
A more interesting conundrum is what aircraft to fly off the carriers? I can see great advantages from the RAF moving to an all Typhoon force, since it seems the Tornados will be phased out some years early. If we could afford, say, 60 F35s, that would be enough for two active squadrons and an OCU, which will suffice given that only one CVF will be in full commission at any one time. The F35s should therefore be given over to the Fleet Air Arm. British military aircraft ownership will then be simple, Typhoons for the RAF, and F35s for the Royal Navy. We won’t be buying 150 F35s, so we may as well face reality: the service which needs the F35 is the Navy, and we will only be able to buy enough F35s for one service.
Right. Honestly, the RAF wouldn’t be that bad off with fewer squadrons because its transition from single role Tornado F, Tornado GR, and Jaguars to the multi-role typhoon. No matter what the A2G loadout is, the Typhoon is carrying 2 ASRAAMS and 3-4 Meteors.
benroethigIts either the QEs or nothing unless the UK miraculously suddenly develops competent politicians. The cost of LHDs would be whatever their price is plus the CVF quit contracts.
benroethigThat immediately came to my mind as I continued to read this thread.
Allow me to add my two cents to this discussion with a sort-of crazy idea: License-build the Gripen locally in the USA. It already uses some American technology and components; just replace all the equipment that you can with an American-designed and -made equivalent. The design has already proven itself and everything points to it being cheaper to operate than the other given alternatives.This would be only to fill the gap until another solution could be found. Might that solution be to wait for the F-35 production to get to full swing or be it to develop another fighter. Later on when these locally built Gripens aren’t needed anymore they could be sold to other countries that wouldn’t have enough funds to buy anything American (F-35) or can’t wait around for cheaper second-hand/used F-35 fighters to enter the market.
As long as all main components and the assembly of the aircraft is made in American soil by American workers and by an American giant (Boeing? Northrop Grumman?) it would be feasible.
Too crazy?
Best regards,
It is a crazy idea. It would require training and logistics on a different platform, but you’re not completely off base. A version of whatever is selected for T-X could be used for CONUS air defense purposes in places where there where will be coverage gaps, like PR for instance.
benroethigAnyone know if the favourite aircraft of the Chief of the Defence Staff – the Super Tucano – could land and take-off on the CVF?
in a CATOBAR configuration with some reinforcement it should no problem at all. OV-10s used to operate from LHA/Ds though landing was tricky on the narrow LHDs. My issue would be with the prop hitting the ski-jump in a STOVL configuration.
benroethigAs a cost cutting measure could they either suspend construction for a year or so or string construction out still further to save money and thus delay the inservice dates of both QE and PofW and bring them in line with the perfection and potential instyallation of EMALS?
Yes. That’s what they did with Ford. However, CVF is a projet that will tie up a lot of the UK’s shipbuilding assets for a significant amount of time.
I can’t accept the assertion that the F35B is the end (and some would say not even the pinnacle) of STOVL aircraft.
if you see the number of designs now being planned for UAV/UCAV ops in this mode you will see that its not just the operators of the F35B who believe its valid. Ultimately a manned fighter replacing the F35B when it leaves service in 30/40 years time may be unlikely, but combat operations undertaken with VTOL aircraft are increasingly likely in my view.
Its actually the future….
STOVL is the eventual future. Problem is with current jet and turboprop technology which produce an aircraft that is overly complex and expensive and with not insignificant range and payload penalties if you want it going supersonic. Current jet technology will be replaced some day.
benroethigThey wanted STOVL so they could have the RAF and FAA cooperate saving them money. They conveniently forgot that a) the RAF cooperates with nobody, especially not their arch enemy fleet air arm, an b) the aircraft can’t be two places at once. Essentially CVF was built for a best case scenario that has no way of happening unless 1 and 4 squadrons are stood down and their assets given to 2 FAA squadrons.
Basically they started with the JSFs flying off of the Invincibles until the new 35k ton STOVL carriers were ready. Then the RN decided that they wanted to return to CATOBAR ops with the ships increasingly slightly to be the same size the CdeG. Then with the problems the french have had with deck space and the constantly growing JSF the ships got around 50k tons. Then Thales and BMT introduced a 66,000 ton carrier. They decided they liked this design and instead of having STOVL and CATOBAR designs they had Thales/BMT produce both a CATOBAR design design. Then they decided they wanted something smaller, they made a smaller design then basically went back to the original design to what we have no. That’s the simplified version of how chaotic CVF has been.
benroethig……………and the F35B is straight forward and cheap? Or at least more straight forward and cheaper?
Not really. It takes the complexity and puts it in the aircraft instead of the ship. You end up with a system that doesn’t quite live up to the myths regarding safety (statically its less safe) and austere operations, but if you’re willing to pay a penalty in both money and capability, STOVL will let you into the carrier game on a much smaller ship or with very extensive helicopter support let you operate in an emergency from general aviation airports.
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