RE: Warhawks in North Africa

Great stuff kev. What you’ve posted and what I’ve posted just highlights the fact that the MTO (specifically North Africa) is often one of the forgotten theaters or WWII. It seems like WWII took place only in Northern Europe and and the Western Pacific near Japan. I hope all of you here realize just how important an fierce the battles of the MTO were. If you look at it, the MTO had some very fascinating warplanes taking part. You have the Luftwaffe’s array of He-111, and Ju-88 medium bombers, Ju-87 light bombers, Bf-109, Bf-110, and Fw-190 fighters as well as Italian G.50, MC.200, MC.202 fighters. British Hurricane, Spitfire, Beaufighter, and Gladiator fighters, as well as American P-40 fighters. All these fascinating aircraft types along with all the brave units, most of which seemed very very good at what they did. Yet this theater is still forgotten. It is sad how history remembers, or forgets in this case, certain aspects of great events such as WWII.

RE: Warhawks in North Africa

You bring up some interesting points. The claims however in both of the first two engagements were all verified. They are all official and accounted for. If you like, I can give you the e-mail of the author of this article, and I’m sure he will tell you the same thing. The reason for the success of the P-40 in those engagements was because it was used to its strengths. The pilots of the 325th were one of the most successful outfits of the war, and they proved that the P-40 wasn’t necessarily and outmoded airplane if it was flown according to its strengths. Contrary to popular belief, the P-40 wasn’t completely inferior to the Bf-109’s it met in the MTO and (including North Africa and southern Europe), and it wasn’t outclassed by the Zero’s it met in the Pacific. Take the RNZAF for example. With their P-40’s which they operated up until late 1944, they shot down 99 Japanese aircraft, most of them Zeros, and lost only 20 of their own. That is almost a 5:1 kill ratio. Then you have the 23rd Fighter Group (formed from the remnants of the AVG when it disbanded), which operated P-40’s until fairly late in the war when they swtiched to the P-51. This fighter group was the most successful USAAF fighter group of the entire war, with close to 600 kills to its credit, and a number of losses not even nearly that high. I think their kill ratio was roughly 6:1. Supposedly, some of Russia’s aces liked the P-40 for its durability, as did most pilots, and some of their pilots did very well with the Warhawk as well. Regarding replacing the P-40, the aircraft was in production until December 1944. It fought until V-J Day. It was replaced yes, but the P-40 served throughout the entire war. The USAAF still had some in service that were redesignated ZF-40N when they USAF was officially formed in 1947. Regarding the Palm Sunday Massacre, there were only 11 Spitfires in that fight meaning the P-40’s had to do some dogfighting of their own. The reason the P-40 is sometimes thought of as an inferior fighter is because pilots in the early stages of the war (with the exception of the AVG) didn’t fly the aircraft to its strengths, which was medium and low altitude combat, often using dive slash tactics. One thing I noticed you put was that the P-40 was replaced by the Hurricane. Actually the exact opposite was true. Many British squadrons traded in their Hurricanes for the faster P-40, as they deemed the Curtiss machine a much better match for the German and Italian fighters they faced. Also, when you question those engagements, look at the overall record of the 325th. They operated three types of aircraft. They operated the P-40 until late 1943- early 1944, and then the P-47 for a short time and then finally the P-51. They were extremely successful with all three aircraft, which means two things. Firstly, it means these men were extremely skilled and very well trained and they knew what they were doing. Secondly, the three aircraft they used were good performers when used to their strengths. The 325th scored around 130 victories with the P-40, while losing only 17 P-40’s. That is a very impressive kill ratio. All the figures I’ve provided have been proven, and none of it is made up in any form or fashion. I feel you are under the impression that so many people have fallen under that the P-40 was an inferior fighter, and doesn’t deserve to be on the list of great fighters of the war. It is sad when people feel this way, but hopefully I (as well as many others) can change your perspective on one of the most successful yet misunderstood fighters of WWII. Now, do you want that e-mail?

RE: Warhawks in North Africa

I know, I was just kidding. I’ll be waiting for some responses though. 🙂

RE: Swordfish

That sounds interesting. Is there any possibility that they can get it in good condition, flying maybe if possible? Say, do you know if the Mk.IV retained the rear gun? Was there room for it with the new cockpit canopy? If so, how was it fitted? Also, do you happen to know how much the canopy helped? Did the aircraft gain some type of AC and heat system? Oh yes, and for anyone that didn’t know, I found out today that the rear gun was loaded with 582 rounds. I’d never been able to find that before today. I only wish I knew how many rounds the forward firing gun could carry.

RE: Warhawks in North Africa

Well, I found the stories. They aren’t from the exact place I had originally seen them, but they are the same stories, so here they are, plus one extra one….the last one being famously called the Palm Sunday Massacre.

North Africa was the first place the Hawks and Eagles met, but it was not their last confrontation. On the Russian front Soviet P-40s faced the Luftwaffe’s 109s and Focke Wulf 190s with considerable success. In Italy the 325 Fighter Group, known as the “Checker-Tailed Clan” because of the yellow and black checkerboards painted on their tails, scored two impressive victories over German 109s.

Story 1-

On 1 July 1943, 22 P-40s made a fighter sweep over southern Italy. Forty Bf-109s surprised the checker-tails, engaging them at moderate altitude where the P-40 performed best. After an intense dogfight the Germans lost half their force while only one P-40 failed to come back.

Story 2-

A similar event took place on the 30th of the same month in which 20 P-40s were bounced by thirty-five 109s. The Germans limped home after losing 21 of their own while the checker-tails came through with only one loss. The Germans lost 135 aircraft (ninety-six of which were 109s) to the pilots of the checkered-tail P-40s while shooting down only seventeen of the 325th.

Story 3-

Back in North Africa, the most successful engagement by Tomahawks was what has come to be known as the Palm Sunday Massacre. Just before sundown on Palm Sunday, 18 April 1943, P-40s on anti-transport patrol spotted over 60 Ju-52s escorted by 21 fighters off of Cape Bon, making their way to Sicily. Elements of the 57th and 324th as well as the British 92 Squadron intercepted. 11 Spitfires covered 46 P-40Fs as they pounced on the Axis formations, ripping them to shreds. The carnage ended with 59 Ju-52s and 16 fighters crashing into the sea or Tunisian soil for the loss of only 6 P-40s.

These stories are all from this article comparing the P-40 to the Zero. It is a very good read, and I hope that anyone who’s got an interest in WWII aviation or the P-40 or just WWII in general will read it.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/p-40_vs_zero.htm

RE: Warhawks in North Africa

Well, I’m having trouble finding those stories about the 325th. That book I have apparently doesn’t have those exact stories. It has some others which I’ll post later on, but I have to get the first two posted first. They aren’t too long, they just have incredible outcomes that will make anyone place respect under the definition of P-40.