niravAmazing.
I just wanted to correct someone who wrongly claimed
1) LCA is “certain” to be inducted in numbers
2) IAF was sole operator of Gnats an Jags.I proved that person wrong. Suddenly 3 other posters accuse me of
“Hate”, “spamming”, “troll”.
1.It is just YOUR opinion which states that the LCA is uncertain to be inducted in numbers.
and since you so vehemently are trying to pass off your “OPINION” as a “FACT”, why dont you give us credible sources to back up your claims .. err ‘facts’ i.e.
Senior people in the IAF and even a couple of chiefs of the IAF have shown their support for the LCA and ARE looking forward for the MK1 and MK2 as well, and have also earmarked significant money for that as well…
Rs.5,000 CRORES being earmarked for the IAF variants and the Indian Navy showing confidence in the LCA by sanctioning Rs.5,000 CRORES is commitment enough for the program in general.
In light of the given information at hand, it is quite obvious that there does exist a commitment by the IAF AND IN towards the LCA.
If the Services were so dissatisfied with the Program, as many Pakistani posters wish to believe ( :rolleyes: ), the Services would have voiced their displeasure and not allocated THOUSANDS of CRORES of Rupees…
2.Also, your enlightened POST about the “sole operator” bla bla started it all, which btw, you successfully managed to take on a Tangent to the actual claim/statement by you.
IAF being “about the sole operator” of Jaguars/Gnats isn’t the original claim.
I see you didnt reply to my post regarding PAF,as of now,being the Sole operator of the “joint” JF-17.
For all its pluses (claimed better than the early model F16 in most aspects), the PLAAF are still not willing to induct it.
What sense does this decision make then ? What is it so horrible about this plane that the PLAAF refuses to commit to the project and Induct it in numbers. Isn’t it touted to be a 15 mil $ Multi role 4th gen fighter ?!
Guess in light of your esteemed opinion, France should disband their squadrons of the Rafale…
Also, if you have an idea, an RFI by the Indian Navy does NOT mean a confirmed order.. it is,at the moment, just a Request For Information.
Whereas, earmarking of Rs.3,000 Crore which is about 700 MILLION $ is firm commitment to Naval LCA …
Now that is a FACT 😎
I anyone can post a single peice of evidence that I have indulgd in name calling or spamming PLEASE POST MY QOUTES.
If proving you wrong on several suumption you make is “hate” of “trolling”, thats actually something you may have to start actually dealing with.
you havent been accused of ‘spamming’ … but have been accused of “Trolling“
Check the link for the exact specific definition, who applies to you to the T..
Nirav/Teer/Whoever
As you should well know going but recent Indian projects. The backing of senior officers or service checifs does not nessacarily mean a project gets off the ground and is nducted in large numbers. The Arjun tank is a example of this. My point is stll valid. LCA is way off being “certain” to be inducted in large numbers.
All you know have to do is respond with FACTS, not “senior officers think” or “I consider” etc etc.
Deal with it.
Thanks for giving us another Classic …
Reminds me of the Oracle, the proponent ot TWU BVR !! 😀
Backing of the SERVICE CHIEFs of the IAF does NOT matter…
“Rimmers” opinion/fantasy does… :rolleyes:
niravAre those USAF flight crews in the desert flight suits!?
Doubt if the PAF would want the Americans so close to its latest strategic asset !
Could be the Swedes who could have flown in the Plane or the System operators from SAAB. .
niravI think what we need now is a FAQ ( perhaps at BR ? ) which is constantly updated so that Troll Brigade can see the light from the eternal darkness they are now into.
In the past we had similar discussion where Harry , JC spent a good amount of time debunking the myth and now we see Teer , Rahul and others doing the same.
This is lot of time and energy wasted in responding to the query which keeps on popping up and then we end up responding to each Troll.
What we need is a good FAQ with even Tejas for Dummies , so that the next time we end up with a Troll request we can direct them to those FAQ and it will save a lot of time and promote correct information about the project.
The problem here is the endless HATE. And a case of extremely selective reading/interpreting of available information.
Even if a repository were to be put up, they would still come up with the same old ‘merinews’ or ‘Admiral Nadkarni’ article over and over again …
niravYou know Rimmer all that vehemence and obnoxiousness from you aside here are some FACTS for you.
You know FACTs as different from OPINION – facts which have been reported by both public media and ranking officers across all organizations.
1. The Indian Air Force has cleared the MOD to begin development of a LCA MK2.
2. The Indian Air Force has asked HAL, the actual manufacturers to work on the LCA MK2 and put up funds for a production run of AT LEAST five squadrons and even SEVEN. Funding of the order of Rs 800,000 Million.
3. Two IAF Air Chiefs including the current one, his serving Vice Chief have ALL come out in support of the LCA.
4. The IAF in the Standing Committee on Defence 2008-09 in 2009 has gone on record stating they need the LCA.
5. The Govt of India has officially funded the LCA project for the next decade till 2018 which includes the MK2.
6. The IAF has signed up for the LCA MK1 BEYOND what was originally agreed – just a first squadron and asked for a second squadron as well. Both because the MK1 is ALREADY useful and because the LCA production needs to be kept running.
7. The IN has also signed up for the program and funded the development of the NLCA. Again, not out of the goodness of their heart. This means an additional TWO squadrons at the minimum.
8. LCA MK2 development funding clearance has already launched the development of various subsystems and programs.
Now I dont particularly care how things are done in Pakistan – but in India this means serious funding, cleared for certain induction, cleared by the USER AF which took 7 years of detailed flight testing and involved work from its end to come to this conclusion.
So despite all the gas you have written so far, and all the vehemence that you have shown in believing that the LCA will not be ordered, you have no facts in your corner.
Its mere vehemence and arguement for arguements sake.
Merely being obnoxious and condescending to RahulM or others about facts versus opinion wont cut it.
Now I know some Pakistanis like you have this obsessive near belief in trying to push the claim that somehow the LCA will not get produced (when all the facts run to the contrary – eg like the fact that the IAF was the SOLE operator of the SU-30 MKI as a launch customer) ..
And of course, just after registering you have to run to the IAF thread and spam us, with this ridiculous series of vehement posts for NO reason at all.
Your behaviour is provocative, unecessary and ridiculous – compare and contrast to Vikasrehman for instance, who defines what somebody who is interested in real discussion behaves as.
But why dont you spend that same passion and drive in doing something more productive, such as answering a single question which we’ve asked for so long and got NO answer to? Namely what is Pakistans contribution to the JF-17 beyond funding and what exactly has it developed?
You see, I see all that energy you have which could be directed to something useful and actually solve a mystery which has been debated on the internet for over a decade. Please tell us.
Couldnt have put it up better !
The most amusing part of the recent Troll/Spam attacks is “IAF is reluctantly” ordering the 2 Squadrons :rolleyes: 😀
Even if Senior IAF people Including Air Chiefs are backing the LCA program, and want it to be inducted in numbers, the “opinions/facts” propounded by the “Strategic/Oracle brigade” weigh supreme…
And what was that about Sole operator ?
No airforce wants to be in a sole operator type situation…
So all the airforces around the world who are ALREADY sole operators of a type of Aircraft should disband their squadrons as it is the “opinion” or should i say “facts” propagated by the Troll brigade.. ! :rolleyes:
Wonder what the PAF was thinking when they Inducted the JF-17 as the Chinese as of yet havent placed confirmed orders for the Type.
They might end up being the “Joint-Sole operators” for a considerable period of time ..
And then we have ‘Mini Rafale’ threads…. ! 😮
But i guess PLAAF isnt interested in 20 mil $ Mini Rafales …
They seem to be satisfied with the J-10, which, btw , after being introduced in the sub continent will end up being the Mini-Typhoon ! 😀
niravdear dharmaputra yudhisthir, since when do you lord over the mods here ? 😮
didn’t know you are a super-mod here.
ho ho ho !
that was “you” questioning the LCA status ? why do I get the impression that it is a copy-paste from a blog post from a loony website called merinews ? http://www.merinews.com/article/iaf-cant-rule-skies-with-engineless-swadeshi-tejas/133414.shtml
the contributor’s there are “citizen journalists”, IOW they are not even accredited journalists but unknown people writing under assumed names. their “original opinion” and “invention of facts” might be of interest to a troll like you but not to anyone else.the information I gave comes from Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar, ex-IAF, a well-respected test pilot who led CLAW development of LCA on behalf of IAF and went on to become director of the LCA program after retirement.
I know whose information to believe. you are free to believe any old nutcase from merinews or rupeenews but kindly don’t bring that garbage here.
i’m sure dharmaputra yudhisthir must then also believe in the other bile from his preferred sources like merinews …..
and if merinews is to be believed, these guys at ADA are crazy ! 😀
When last heard, the ADA was in exploratory talks, reportedly with Paris-based Safran to further develop the Kaveri aircraft. Thus, the integration of Kaveri or the GE F404 with the airframe has been a non-starter.
Kaveri Aircraft ?! 😀
niravReally?
…..The minister was only continuing the legacy of bafflements about the LCA project ever since its launch. When originally launched in 1983 with the objective of replacing the Indian Air Force’s fleet of MiG-21s, the outlay for the LCA development was rupees 560 crore. It has been spent ten times over till now! The project was renamed ‘Tejas’ (glory) during Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s regime.
…..A separate project by another DRDO white elephant, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), was mounted to develop the indigenous Kaveri engine, supposed to power Tejas. Even as the original budget of rupees 382 crore was repeatedly revised to reach rupees 2,840 crore, the power plant is nowhere near reality after eight years. Its main turbine disintegrated in the test bed due to elementary design and quality compromises. But, GTRE’s brilliant scientist bosses were unwilling to be criticised.
for a person called “yudhishtir” :rolleyes: , its very strange that you dont know what ‘Tejas’ means ….. FYI, it means ‘radiance’ …. and NOT ‘glory’ :rolleyes:
But i guess it must be one of the ****stani”defence” forumers who must have come up with the term that it means ‘glory’ and started lambasting it ….
you guys sure seem to have fun criticizing Indian Aeronautical agencies and seem to get kicks out of it ….. ! :confused:
with all due respect, try developing something similar on your own, and then start commenting on what others are doing and how they are doing it ….
even with your mighty all weather friends ( and also taller than mountain friends ) have trouble putting up their own engines in the much vaunted “joint fighter” … dont see yall criticizing the Chinese with the same fervour !! :rolleyes:
@ Matt : Su thayu bhai ? Why the lambast ?! :confused:
niravAnd don’t forget that India gets a nice, juicy £1 billion in ‘aid’ from the UK each year. That’ll buy a few helicopters!
Shame the UK Government don’t spend the money to assist our struggling armed forces.
well, it isnt quite 1 Billion Pounds per year ….
DFID says they spent a billion pounds over a span of 5 years .. from 2002-07 and they propose to spend 825 million pounds from 2008-2011 ..
http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Where-we-work/Asia-South/India/
not quite the juicy billion pound a year dole outs you are referring to… 😮
Agreed , this money too can buy a good number of helicopters though ..
niravB.A. – Iberia’s Merger would go for a toss !
niravI do not think that more and more make IAF better. It is not that big yet. It has to remove the outdated planes and get better trainer aircraft. The next decade will be induction time. A long learning curve cause whatever they buy as MRCA, it will need time to get it and to master it.
About being something to be taken serious… Well, There are three big players in that area and all three have nukes and decent weapons. There is not much to achieve anymore. India can buy 1000 MKI’s and still stay the same. I wonder how they will keep them in the air cause getting Russian planes in one… Maintenance is two.
Redefining the Definition of “BIG” ….
Wonder who the third BIG player in the Region is… ! 😀
The existing Indian AF which btw includes 100+ MKIs and a whole lot of Squadrons of BVR capable fighters isnt that BIG enough.
However a couple Squadrons of the F16s which are BVR capable , and there you have a “BIG player” with “decent weapons” ! 😀
And about Maintenance of Russian planes, well the IAF has operated Russian planes from decades and has good enough knowledge about them..
Come to think of it, how will the PAF manage with a Russian RD series engine on their JF-17s ?
the PAF experience with Russian Engine tech is almost nada . .
Hope the aircraft dont come down after their servicing by inexperienced technicians on the type . . ! 😮
I love your positive attitude but to me a bit unrealistic…. Even conventional there is no way India can beat countries like China and Pakistan. Back then it had overwhelming powers and numbers but it did not eliminate countries.
countries like Pakistan ? I could understand when you mentioned China, India may not be able to do that, but what makes you think so highly of Pakistan conventionally ?!
As far as the conventional capability is concerned, kindly check what PAFs Retired Commodore Kaiser Tufail had to say about PAF fighter availability and spares availability rates during Kargil …. The CAPs by the F16s had to be discontinued in just a WEEKS time ,,, as it is, those were just Random CAPs and that too in just ONE WEEK of random CAP flying, the activity had eaten into the WAR Reserves ! 😮
Link : http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html
The Chinese stayed away during all the wars Pakistan waged with India.
So yeah, Dream on that China will Gang up with Pakistan to take on India, beat India in your words . .
Pakistan fought its wars on its own, and tragically lost all of them and a HUGE portion of the country too !
niravOT: This thread has given us a “Strategic Analyst” in the order of revered Star49 – the Oracle…
a “analyst” who with some research project for two years of whatever has the gall to compare one of Indias top Nuke scientists and his statements to a “noisy dog” ….
Hmm…
even the Oracle didnt stoop so low in his “strategic analysis”….
Ignoring Ante’s “Analysis” would be a better idea,Teer. He has got 2 years of TIME .. and lots of spare time at hand as is evident from his post count. . !
@ Topic : Any news on the Underwater Brahmos Test which was due ?
niravOn the basis of the government top brass saying there will not be further tests or reviews.
On the basis of India’s unilateral morotorium on tests.
What makes you think that the “unilateral moratorium” would stop India from testing in the future when its National Interest demands that a weapon ought to be Tested ….
There was a tacit global Moratorium on testing until 98 when we tested our devices …..
We weathered the 1998 sanctions but they were not without consquence,
from then PPP of around 1.6 Trillion USD in 1998 to about 4 Trillion USD in 2007 ….. That was the economic performance in about a Decade in face of the economic sanctions …
“without consequence” ? well yes …..
we are much more integrated into the free market now and will have a bigger economic impact.
This fact itself would ensure that countries,specially, ones under going economic recession, would think hard about the effects of economic sanctions with one of their major trading partners …
I was saying Santhanam was on Chinese payroll, I do not think China cares whether its India or America which suffers due to U.S sanctioning us. The fact is that we need the civillian power to develop infrastructure and industries to augment our growth any tests would put the IAEA waiver at risk.
Santhanam on a Chinese payroll because Santhanam wants India to test and Perfect its MT Device to provide efficient deterrence value against China …
Hmm … :rolleyes:
And secondly, even if the Nuke deal were to be completely called off, it wont be the end of the road for India or have disastrous consequences for India.
As far as power generation is concerned, the Govt is on track on utilizing the hydel power generation capacity available , re : NHPC recent expansion ..
Gas is also a viable option, and moratorium or non moratorium, nothing can stop us from meeting our power/energy needs from Iran.
I have analyzed various opinions and my own thoughts with regards to the matter. Santhanam is either a scaremonger or on foriegn payroll. You accuse me of the same becuase of my postings on MRCA threads ? If you paid closer attention you would know I am favouring a single engined fighter the Gripen or F 16 and am tilted towards the former, does that mean I am on Swedish payroll now ?
Santhanams various opinions and his own thoughts with regards to the matter hold no value, but an ex-american bot and now swedish bots value are of ultimate “strategic” value …. :rolleyes:
Its good to remember one’s family now and then.
yeah, reason why you had to remember them pomeranians while speaking about the views of an eminent nuclear scientist eh …. ? 😉
I did before posting it. I guess you are just another radical nationalist paranoid warmonger from BR.
If you really did think about your quoted proverb, you wouldnt quite keep dissing Santhanam and his stance w/o knowing the specifics of the whole strategic scenario …
and the reason for “accusing” you of being an american bot is because after going through your posts one can easily figure out that in your payrolled view, the Indo-American Nuke Deal is the next best thing to have happened to India AFTER INDEPENDENCE !
and that anything which could jeopardize the deal would have terrible consequences for the Nation of India !
niravYes but what has he accomplished nothing. I will buy all of you a drink if the government or the next government does anything he says.
There will be no tests, there will not even be a committee to evaluate Pokhran 2.
You speak as if YOU are the Final authority in GOI ! 😮
Pray tell us on what basis can you profoundly make such a statement.. !?
Santhanam is working towards his own aims, whatever they may be,
To me it is very clear that this guy has an aim to bring India back from its IAEA breakthrough and newly found recognition. You only have to look around to see which country was against India at the IAEA and who will benefit from a setback in Indo-Western relations and economic sanctions on India. It is China, I am sure that this guy is a closet communist sympathizer who is on Chinese payroll. [/B]
It is quite obvious from K.Santhanams statements that he would like India to further Test and perfect deterrence based on the MT category …
I dont think that can be called being on a Chinese payroll….
However going buy the vast amounts of posts from you w.r.t the MMRCA threads, it sure seems that YOU are on an American payroll.
@ your bla bla abt IAEA: If India were to test again, we’d loose the so called “newly found recognition” and the “breakthrough”
well, if the Nuke deal were to be called off, it wouldnt be India who would suffer as much, but surely the Western biggies who’d loose out on Multi BILLION dollar projects in the Indian Nuclear Power Generation sector….
Also, talk of Economic sanctions also doesnt Hold much water …
India is Well Off Economically, we managed ~5% GDP growth even during these recessionary times and things are looking only bright from now on….
Again the party getting the damage would be the Country imposing the Sanctions….
Deterrence is not a subject to be discussed by Nuclear Scientists it is to be discussed by Strategic Analysts.
May i ask,based on which qualification of the above two,are you dissing the efforts of K.Santhanam ?
Santhanam reminds me of a Pomeranian barking at everyone who enters your gate. 😉 It will take more than a naughty puppy to make us test or review again.
Your so called “Strategic Rants” too remind me of Mumbai strays …. Quite an awesome breed .. em …. 😉
And matt – there is a proverb in Malayalam that says ‘sometimes the naive will do more harm than the evil’. You may wonder how ?
You’d do well to reflect on the Malayalee Proverb that you are trying to get across … Think about it. . :rolleyes:
nirav…
The current situation actually demands something drastic.
…
USS.
Modi for PM … 😎
niravSuch conditions would be meaningless for the US and be seen by most countries as unacceptable. An end user agreement is about assuring that the buyer is the end user and will not pass them on to another user. As India is not a recognised nuclear power by USA they might also want to assure that the aircraft is not modified for nukes.
I dont think the Americans would emphasize on the highlighted point a lot . .
Didnt quite see them make noises about Pakistan modding their F-16s for Strategic weapons delivery . .
Only thing that they did, was agree to supply Pakistan with more F-16s !! Advanced ones at that ! 😮
niravOften threads on this forum are stupid (especially the unrelated X vs Y threads) but this one wins the all time Trophy !!!!!!!!. :confused: 😮 🙁 😡 :p
threads like this help maintain the decorum @ keypub …. and anyway , the topic is quite “intellectually stimulating” 😉
@Topic , i think the “unsurpassed interceptor” should be tasked with chasing down the UFO…. am sure the aliens wont quite like the sight of the Mig 25 hurtling down @ them at Mach “3.2” … :p
@ Giving away an “all time Trophy” … seems you havent checked out the other gems @ keypub … heres one for example !!
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