OldNotBoldLong term, I’d agree with that blog. Where does the MoD find the extra money from that doesn’t exist within the current lifetime of this parliament however?
You get EMALS for the second Aircraft Carrier, HMS Prince of Wales, not due to complete for at least two years after HMS Queen Elizabeth. Later, if funds are available you refit HMS QE to the same standard as PoW, as was always in the design to do.
OldNotBoldWhy Catapults are Cheaper
Why UK should buy less expensive, yet more capable, F35C
http://grandlogistics.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-catapults-are-cheaper.html
OldNotBold“The most obvious problem is finding aircraft and helicopters to form air groups for the new carriers. The UK has theoretically committed to buying up 138 of the Lockheed Martin Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) to meet its Joint Combat Aircraft (JCA) requirement; indeed it has already ordered three of the Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) JSF variant (designated F-35B). However there seems to be little chance that more than 50 JCA’s (costing nearly £100 million each) will be affordable. One of the surprises of SDSR might be a decision to abandon the F-35B version for the F-35C which can carry a higher payload over a longer range. The F-35C is also slightly cheaper, but this will be negated by the cost of fitting at least one of the new carriers with two catapults and arresting gear. Adoption of the F-35C will avoid the dangerous looking ‘rolling landing’ technique that the UK has been studying for the F-35B in order to overcome its payload ‘bring back’ weight restrictions. Another potential advantage with the F-35C is that the Royal Navy would be able to cross deck aircraft with United States and French Navy aircraft carriers for the first time since 1978.
If SDSR did decide to go for the F-35C over the F-35B, it’s the second CVF – HMS Prince of Wales – that would be adopted to the operate the aircraft. HMS Queen Elizabeth will be completed largely as planned, including a bow ski-jump. She would initially operate Harrier’s (assuming that they stay in service as currently planned until 2019). Thereafter she would operate as a super-sized helicopter carrier (LPH), effectively replacing HMS Ocean, with the possibility that funding priorities might eventually permit her to be upgraded to the same standard as Prince of Wales.”
OldNotBold“CVF was designed from the outset to have functionality as an LPH so, yes, it very much is on the path. Again CVF is NOT a fleet carrier and isnt intended to be without substantial modification. PA2 was the Fleet Carrier that would come out of the CVF design….if you can classify a 25knt carrier as a Fleet Carrier?.”
You need to go and read what the Royal Navy has actually publicly said about the Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers for over ten years now.
They are adaptable ships certainly, but adabtable Aircraft Carriers. The RN has always insisted that the main driver was the ablity to do Carrier`Strike and serious CAS with an airgroup of up to 36 Fast Jets.
The sums I have seen look like one could put in EMALS in the first carrier for the cost of, at most, 3-4 STOVL F35 B and one can then buy much more capable F35C, at some $25 million US each less.
Recent article in the Times has an ‘Official’ saying that what varient of F35 gets purchased is still under question. F35 C seems much the best option.
The QE’s. I repeat, have always been designed so catapults -either conventional Steam, with auxilery steam generating plant, or EMALS, could be fitted. A lot of fairly detailed design work has actually already been done for this and the British Government went to some trouble a few years ago to make sure that US Emals technology was available to UK.
And from what I hear STOVL F35 B would in any case require a rolling landing to have any worthwhile weapon bring back capability, which means some sort of arrestor or barrier system, even for that, more expensive and less capable FJ.
OldNotBoldTo argue for STOVL F35 B on the basis of one deployment in Afghanistan -the only such deployment in very many years- is rather weak. STOVL F35 B is behind in testing by two years, and it is about to be ‘rephased’ (ie, put back) yet again. STOVL F35 B has much less range, can only carry a much reduced weapons load (half in stealth mode) and features a reduced internal fire fighting system that, according to senior US Officers, makes it vulnerable to the very common 30mm AAA weapons. In addition the very complex lift fan (which is mere dead weight for most of the time the aircraft is operating) could well turn out to be a nightmare to maintain.
As if all that was not enough STOVL F35 B will be the most expensive version, probably about $25 million US each more expensive than, more capable, CATOBAR F35 C. If UK goes for F35, then F35 C is the one to go for.
OldNotBoldIf you go for the F35 at all, F35C is likely to be the better aircraft. Much longer range. Much higher payload -double in stealth mode- no highly complex Lift Fan (that is just dead weight the aircraft is lugging around for most of the time, and could turn out to be a nightmare to maintain) and no reduced internal fire fighting system to make the aircraft more vulnerable to 30mm shells, etc.
F35C will also be up to about $25 million US each less expensive than, less capable STOVL F35B.
OldNotBoldHere is a bet for you: F35B will be the last time all that effort is wasted on a expensive STOVL warplane.
Super Hornet would be the best aircraft for the RN Carriers on cost grounds.
F35C would be best aircraft otherwise.
F35B is a huge waste of money -and less capable- but the RAF like it.
Interestingly the only British weapons F35B will carry -not that it can carry very much of anything- are 500lb Paveways, UK dropped everything else because of expense.
OldNotBoldDefence review: ‘Carriers give politicians options – not dead ends’
At the heart of rows over the defence review is the cost of equipment – but a balanced Navy, led by new aircraft carriers, could help preserve Britain’s standing in the world
“Critics of the new carriers are quick to point at the cost. However, to get out of the contract will cost £2.3 billion which, as these ships will only cost £44 million a year to operate, is more than will be spent on them in their entire working lives. It has been suggested that money could be saved by reducing the number of aircraft or making them less capable. Having fewer aircraft actually wastes the investment in the carriers – it’s like buying a tank but never buying shells for the gun. As to having less capable aircraft, that is already happening. The version of the Joint Strike Fighter we are buying, the F35B vertical/short take-off and landing model which is slated for the carriers, has less range and a smaller payload than the conventional naval “C” variant the Americans are buying; the “C” variant is also about £25 million cheaper per aircraft.
If Britain wants to save money in the carrier programme, fit them with catapults, arrester gear and buy the F35C, not vertical/short take-off version. These carriers represent excellent value for money – probably more so than many other British or European defence projects in the past 20 years. The commitment Britain shows to its maritime position through the carriers and the concept of having a balanced Navy is valuable. In an age where Britain will need the support of allies to further its foreign and security policy, it makes sense to contribute to such alliances as Nato or the EU in the most effective manner to ensure our voice is heard.”
OldNotBold“All the more reason that we avoid the up front cost loading that comes with CATOBAR surely?”
STOVL F35 B is still failing in tests. It will be at least $15 million each more than CATOBAR F35 C -and is far more expensive than Super Hornet. F35 B also features much inferior range and payload.
What we might see is CATOBAR and F35 C but only 50-70 aircraft. Saves money and cuts operational risk, while actually increasing capability. Only thing not in its favour is RAF will not like it.
OldNotBoldMoD have a ‘black hole’ of about 37 billion UK Pounds over the next ten years. Being cheaper is important to UK now.
OldNotBoldReally amazing how ‘Joint’ RAF suddenly get when they are obviously losing an argument.
OldNotBoldWell we will know soon enough, F35C will probably be a better aircraft than STOVL F35B, and might be a little less expensive too.
OldNotBoldFAA has more pilots than aircraft at the moment why 12 FAA pilots are training with the USN on CATOBAR and F18. There is no shortage of people who want to Fly Navy.
OldNotBoldCertainly looking more like Super Hornet, or, maybe F35C, rather than STOVL F35B.
OldNotBoldHere is a possible scenario for you:
Delete most or all Tornado.
Delete Joint Harrier Force and disband it.
Lease to Buy about 50 Super Hornet and go CATOBAR on one Carrier, to start with.
MoD saves many billions to help bridge its Financial Black Hole.
RN gets its FAA back under full control.
Impossible? Maybe not, there are certainly rumours MoD is interested in a Lease to Buy deal on Super Hornet.
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