Kindly do a check on the facts.

Fact 1 – Pakistan used U.S supplied C-130s for picking up Ghauris from North Korea

Fact 2 – Your claim that the “pro-Indian lobby” has had “no success” in passing legislations is also false.

Fact 3 – The F-16s are considered nuclear weapons delivery platforms and will come under the purview of the above legislation, which has equal number of Republicans and Democrats supporting it. Hint – look up the word “bipartisan.”

Fact 4 – MNNA and sanctions don’t come into picture here. Sanctions are used AFTER a sale is made. The key here is the blocking of a sale itself 😉

Is that enough?

Fact – 1 – yes, but teh PAF C-130s have no “self destruct” button

Fact – 2 – no weapons sales have been blocked so far by any ammendment

Fact – 3 I am well aware of the meaning of bipartisan, it may shock you to discover that even democrats put US National interests above supporting teh Indian lobby, although this may not be to your liking

Fact -4 What sale has India blocked!? None, dude, AH-1s, P-3CS and TPS-77s are already in the pipeline and are more advanced then any similar systems in Indian service, why have these not been blocked!?

Do try and take it easy on the foul language you use on teh forum and stcik tio debating, insulkting others really does not help your cause…

Did you READ what I wrote?

I said aircrafts can be given as per this legislation if directly related to the war on terror. I said HELOS. Now do you know what HELO means?

XXX

As to F-16s, you want to bet that Congress would not fight tooth and nail to block it? 😀

moderated

Yes, the pro – Indian lobby will try and block the F-16s but they have hard no sucess in passing any Pak8istani legislation for years now, they have also not stopped the vast amounts of economic and military aid, if Dubya asks the republicans and some democrats that F-16s deliveries are imporant to enhence US interests, then I expect the majority to vote for US interests, not Indian ones…..

Also, the awarding of Major Non NATO ally status means (until this status is revoked) Pakistan will not face any weapons sanctions…

possible

AMRAAM will most likely be a strict no as far as pakistan is concerned..even the f16’s look sort of tricky as the congress and the senate seems pretty satisfied with status quo however it could be allowed if a reasonable lobbying is done.

Well, lets wait and see, Ratheyon was showing it alot at IDEAS and doubt they would have bothered turining up if it AMRAAM was a complet no no and doubt PAF would ask for Block 50s without asking for AMRAAM too….

JANE’S DEFENCE WEEKLY – SEPTEMBER 22, 2004

——————————————————————————–

IDEAS exhibition: US offers to sell F-16s to Pakistan
JOSHUA KUCERA JDW Staff Reporter
Karachi, Pakistan
Additional reporting by Michael Sirak JDW Staff Reporter
Washington, DC

The US is offering to sell 18 F-16 fighter aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pending Congressional approval: one of several such deals in the works after years of US-led defence sanctions against Pakistan, the PAF Chief of Staff has disclosed.

“[The Americans] have indicated that they are ready to give us F-16s,” said Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Kaleem Saadat. “This is not a rumour; it is from the American government.”

Pakistan said it hopes the deal is the beginning of greater US co-operation. “Eighteen I consider to be the first instalment of what would follow,” ACM Saadat told JDW. Approval from Congress, however, is not likely to come until after the US elections in November, he said.

Pakistan is asking that the F-16s be equipped with Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAMs). Along with additional fighter aircraft, Pakistan has also outlined a requirement for a beyond-visual-range missile, which the AMRAAM would meet.

Sanctions

In 1988-89, Pakistan arranged to supplement its stock of 40 F-16A/Bs – about 32 of which remained in service as of 2003 – by ordering an additional 71 aircraft. Lockheed Martin began producing them, but then the US Congress imposed sanctions in 1995 that barred military sales to the country unless the US President could certify that Pakistan was not pursuing nuclear weapons.

As a result, only 28 of the 71 were ever built and none of them were delivered to Pakistan. Instead they were kept in storage in the US until the Bush administration reimbursed the Pakistanis financially and assigned 14 aircraft each to the US Air Force and Navy in June 2002 for training and testing purposes.

The episode still rankles in Pakistan and the renewed possibility of acquiring F-16s is seen partly as making amends in thanks for Pakistan’s efforts as an ally of the US in the wake of 9/11.

“Right from day one, we have been impressing upon the US government what symbolic value the F-16 has for the Pakistani people and the Pakistani nation,” ACM Saadat said. “So it’s not as if 10, 15, 20 aircraft would make a world of difference in our operational capability, but it’s a symbol in the sense that the people of Pakistan think that if they give us this then they are really sincere in helping us.”

In addition, the US thinks that the F-16s could help Pakistan in its fight against Islamist insurgents in the country’s northwest, ACM Saadat said. “So I guess the US government and [US] Central Command believes it would be helpful to their cause also,” he said. The AMRAAMs, however, would be more useful against India than against ground targets in the northwest.

Lockheed Martin officials also said Pakistan’s key role as a US ally appeared to be paying dividends. “If you read what you see in the papers in the last two or three weeks, I would say there’s probably more opportunity than there was [for the F-16 deal],” said James Jamerson, Lockheed’s president for the Middle East and Africa. “The 9/11 commission singled out Pakistan and said it was an important ally and that we need to do it right. Secretary [Colin] Powell made some comments, Senator [John] Kerry made some comments that were positive.”

Jamerson said it was not yet decided what type of F-16s they would be, but said Pakistan has requested new aircraft, which would most likely be Block 50 variants. ACM Sadaat said he was also “open to excess defence articles”.

Lockheed Martin is currently producing only advanced Block 50/52 aircraft and the newer Block 60 configuration. However, the US Air Force has several hundred F-16A/B aircraft remaining in ‘mothballs’. The US government has already sold approximately 150 F-16A/Bs to six nations and modified them via the Mid-Life Update programme that brings their avionics and weapons capabilities near to that of earlier model Block50/52 aircraft.

Pakistan has also sought second-hand F-16A/Bs from countries like Belgium. Such transactions would require US government approval.

Arrangement

If approved, the Pakistani F-16s, would still not fill Pakistan’s requirement for a high-tech fighter, ACM Saadat said, adding that the country is still looking at the Gripen, J-10, Mirage 2000 and additional F-16s. Sweden had been under pressure from the US not to allow the sale of the Gripen, but if the F-16 deal goes through, that may be resolved, ACM Saadat said. “What I am told is that they have an arrangement with Saab that whatever they supply to any country, they can’t prevent Sweden from doing it. That is to say, if the F-16 and AMRAAM was to come to Pakistan, the Americans will not be able to object to Sweden doing the same thing,” he said.

Pakistan is now waiting for Sweden to decide whether it will allow the sale and is also conducting testing of the J-10.

That high-tech aircraft will supplement the larger numbers of more modest JF-17 fighters that Pakistan is developing with China. The first prototype flew last September and since then two new ones have been built and are being flown in China, ACM Saadat said. After the fourth prototype is produced, development will be frozen for the first small-batch production, starting in 2006. The Pakistan Air Force and the the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force will each get eight of those. Then full production should go on for 10-15 years.

In early September, the US also concluded a deal to sell six C-130Es to Pakistan. Two will be delivered by the end of 2004 and all will get wing, engine and avionics upgrades. One avionics kit will be installed in the US and then Lockheed Martin will send a team to Pakistan to help local industry install the rest.

The US has also agreed to help the Pakistan Navy refurbish its two P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, said Chief of Navy Staff Adm Shahid Karimullah. The work will start in November, he said, and will restore them to an operational state.

Pakistan is also negotiating with the US for eight additional Orions to replace its Breguet Atlantic maritime patrol aircraft: a deal that would also require Congressional approval. “The number has not been finalised – certainly enough to replace our ageing Atlantics,” said Adm Karimullah. Those would probablybe used aircraft, Lockheed Martin officials said.

PAF also tested J-10 last year in the 3rd quarter and was really impressed by it specially by the avionics. Chinese avionics have come a long way. PAF is looking into inducting J-10s and they won’t be a replacement rather an addition. PAF has never looked into inducting something in small numbers and the reason is to keep the operating cost lower. F-16 was supposed to be in big numbers also but the whole plan was effected due to sanctions as we all know it.

I believe the minimum number would be 4 to 6 squadrons of J-10. If you guys remember PAF’s last Chief who died in an accident also mentioned that PAF was looking into some more advanced Chinese aircraft, it could have been JXX but I doubt that since that project has some ways to go.

There is now a real danger of far too many aircraf types entering PAF inventory….

In 5 years we may be looking at

FC-1
J-10
F-16
Mirage ROSE
F-7PG
A-5C
Gripen?

when we get Thunder and a new high tech fighter I suppose we can dedicate all our F-16s to strike/attack, they are equipped with the Atlis 2/Paveway combo…