PAF FanRN has given up operating air launched ASMs I think and not much stress on ship launched either. Their main anti ship tool is SSNs which is ok if you have a bunch of good SSNs like they do.
Incorrect, the RAF carry this out on behalf of the RN using air launched Harpoon, just like the US and Pakistani Navies…….
Here is the official link
PAF FanListing P-3C aircraft as FMS assistance
PAF FanHarpoons for the Pak.Army? That’s new! 😀
I don’t know why you’re posting such gibberish? What would ECM and EW systems do onboard missiles? Jam the target’s radar? Tap their frequencies? 😀
Neither is there any evidence to support that the PN is getting any “new” or “advanced” Harpoons with “greater” resistance to ECM. You also just seem to have made up a blank claim about the Sea Eagle being easily “jammable”.
BTW Measures to counter ECM are called “E.C.C.M” as in Electronic-Counter-Counter-Measures!
Sea Eagle retirement came under heavy dispute within RN circles. They may still operate the SM-39 and MM-39 and the Harpoon but those are not solely air launched, as with the Sea Eagle. Production itself did’nt close down and supply of a batch of rounds to the IN from BAe, was quite recent. Overall range is 130 km, slightly more than early harpoon variants.
And that’s supposed to be an order for 6 aircraft?
Harry
Every modern Navy uses the Harpoon or Exocet. Ask yourself why that is? The RN got rid of the Sea Agle for a good reason…..
Production has ceased!
EW on missiles, as I am sure you are aware, are designed to block and surpass any attempts that the target may take at jamming the missile. Seeing as Sea Eagle is now no longer produced do you think it has modern ECCM?
Incidentally, when was the last batch supplied to the IN? Certainly not after the 1998 nuclear tests….
PAF FanThe Harpoon Stand-Off Land Attack Missile (SLAM)
Current Sea-eagles have greater range and were designed to bring down heavier ships, which have been proven during live fire tests. One was enough to sink a leander class ship. Il-38s are getting the air launched Klub and the Brahmos-A will be integrated with the Tu-142 and Il-38, when available.
I don’t know why you’ve posted the rest of the features which are totally generic to the sonobouy, DSP and ESM processing systems on all MRASWs? Absolutely nothing stands out. What you’ve pasted just defines their basic functions.
In terms of sensors, the EL/M-2022A has begun to supplant the ageing APS-115 on the P-3C itself. The latter is cassegrain dish based set from the late 60-70s, certainly not capable of SAR/ISAR modes, long range, 32-100 target TWS capability as available on the EL/M-2022A.
The Tu-142, Do-228 have the Elta MOSP and the Il-38 has the UOMZ GOES-324. What does the PN’s P-3C have in terms of long range, day-night electro-optics? Zilch.
Both aircraft also have up-to-date ESM systems and SATCOM, in the form of Israeli built ESM systems on the Tu-142 and Do-228 (the Do-228 has the Elisra AES-210E ESM) and the Morskoi Zmei radio recon system on the Il-38. All aircraft have extensive datalinking capabilties. Net, the P-3C seems to be pretty obsolete in comparison.
On order (meaning contract signed, money transferred)? Where does it say so?
http://www.dawn.com/2004/08/06/top9.htm
Navy hopeful of getting US maritime aircraft
By Our Staff Reporter
ISLAMABAD, Aug 5: Pakistan Navy is hopeful of getting P-3C Orions long-range maritime surveillance aircraft and spares for other units from the US, said Naval chief Admiral Shahid Karimullah on return from his visit to the States.
Admiral Karimullah had gone on a ’10-day official visit’ to the United States to explore opportunities of acquiring new weapons systems and spares for the Navy. After touching down at Karachi, Admiral Karimullah flew to Islamabad where he was received on the airport by Rear Admiral McDonald of the US Navy, vice-admiral Farooq Rashid of PN and other officials.
Rear Admiral McDonald had also seen off the Naval chief at Islamabad Airport on July 18. According to a press release issued by the Naval Headquarters, Admiral Karimullah on his return said he was hopeful about acquisition of P-3C aircraft and spares for units in Pakistan Navy’s inventory.
He said the military assistance was in the pipeline and should soon be approved by the US Senate. However, he added, the process could take some time and required patience as the US government has to follow certain procedures.
Admiral Karimullah said Pakistan Navy “does not want to take any hasty decisions” and would acquire the military hardware after thorough examination of the offer. The examination was vital to ensuring that the equipment acquired by the Navy was in accordance with its service requirements and in the best interest of the nation, he added.
Sources said the examination of the equipment in the pipeline would help Navy avoid the trap of getting old equipment with expensive spare parts. The Naval Headquarters said during his stay in the US, Admiral Karimullah met US Under-Secretary of State Christina Rocca, Chief of Naval Operations US Navy Admiral Vern Clark and US Fleet Commanders of Pacific and Atlantic Fleets and Commander of US Central Command.
Pakistan Navy’s participation in the Maritime Coalition Campaign was lauded by the military and civil functionaries of the United States, said the press release. The sources said Pakistan Navy had contributed one frigate for participation in the 10-nation Maritime Coalition Force patrolling the Arabian Sea to interdict weapons of mass destruction and terrorists on board ships.
Pakistan Navy joined the Maritime Coalition Force as a result of discussions held in September 2003 with Admiral Vern Clark, US Navy’s chief of naval operations. During the visit, the Naval chief also explored new avenues of cooperation with the US after Pakistan got the status of a Major Non-Nato Ally.
Commenting on his visit, he said the visit had cemented the already strong ties between the two Navies. Quoting Admiral Karimullah, the press release said, the official US circles were not only appreciative of the ‘principled stand’ of Pakistan in the war against terrorism but also understood the constraints of Pakistan in this regard.
The Source for Navy News http://www.news.navy.mil
Pakistani Delegation Visits P-3C Orion Squadron
Story Number: NNS040809-16
8/9/2004
By Journalist 2nd Class Wes Eplen, Commander, U.S. Naval Forces Central Command/Commander, U.S. 5th Fleet Public Affairs
MANAMA, Bahrain (NNS) — Patrol Squadron (VP) 9 hosted a maritime surveillance familiarization visit of four Pakistani naval aviation experts in Bahrain Aug. 1-5.
The Pakistani delegation consisted of a naval aviator, a tactical officer, a maintenance officer, and an air crew operator, and was given tours of Commander, U.S. Navy Central Command/Commander, U.S. 5th Fleet spaces and VP-9 spaces, briefs on U.S. maritime patrol and surveillance capabilities and procedures in the 5th Fleet area of operations, and taken on two familiarization flights aboard U.S. P-3C Orion aircraft.
“There’s very little difference between the way our countries do business,” said Pakastani Tactical Officer Cmdr. Sajjad Akbar. “The differences are mainly due to differences in the aircraft and the equipment. It’s all very similar.”
One flight was conducted in cooperation with a Pakistani Atlantique maritime patrol aircraft.
“We gained a better understanding of just how proficient the Pakistani maritime patrol forces are,” said Cmdr. Rod Urbano, commanding officer of VP-9. “We worked with the Atlantique and saw that their procedures and tactics are very similar to ours, and that working together we can be very effective in patrolling the areas in and around the North Arabian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman.”
However, in addition to their other maritime patrol aircraft, Pakistan has a P-3C squadron of their own. The familiarization visit was a big step toward its operational employment.
“We’ve been able to see how VP-9 operates, and since we’re looking forward to operationalizing our own squadron of P-3Cs very soon, that has been a great help,” said Akbar. “Just seeing how the aircraft and the crew and the squadron operate has been a huge help.
“Secondly, we have been able to clarify coalition requirements, so the opportunities we have to help the coalition, we know what is required of us,” he said. “That is a great advantage, so we can be a big help.”
Pakistan is already a key coalition partner in the global war on terrorism, and the visit only increased confidence between the nations.
“Communications between the aircraft [U.S. P-3C and Pakistani Atlantique] were very smooth,” said Urbano. “The riders were able to see the capabilities of our aircraft, and they saw the ease of operating with U.S. forces. These opportunities just increase the comfort level between our two countries, and we hope to be able to do this more and more in the future,” he added.
As for the future, both parties are optimistic.
“We know that by ourselves, we really cannot cover all of this ocean,” said Urbano. “Only through cooperation with our coalition allies will we be able to do a better job in thwarting all the international terrorist organizations. So for us, it’s a welcome opportunity. We can only grow stronger with these interactions.”
Anti-smuggling, anti-drug trafficking and protection of shipping is a primary concern for us, said Akbar, but like everyone, our focus has shifted now toward the global war on terrorism.
“As soon as our P-3Cs are online, we’ll hopefully be even more active in the coalition,” he added.
Source: http://www.news.navy.mil/search/dis…?story_id=14640
PAF FanHarry
The Royal Navy has retire the Sea Eagle and is keeping the Harpoon. The Harpoon has a range listed as “greater then 70 nautical miles” whats the range of the Sea Eagle? Also, the latest variants of teh Harpoon on order for teh PA will have an EW/ECM suite much more advanced then the now out of production Sea Eagle, which will be very suscuptible to modern jammers!
PAF FanJust a quick remark, are we comparing what the PAF has yet to have with what the IN has already. 🙂
This is why we should just move on. 🙂
Sameer
PN (Not PAF) already has 2 P-3CIIIs with 6 more on order…..
PAF FanPlease stick to the topic and take OT
However, pardon me for I must address this one piece of nationalistic hogwash,
The EL/M-2022A, being chosen for P-3C upgrades, is already on the Indian Tu-142M and Do-228. The types have also been upgraded with optronic systems, of which the P-3C has none whatsoever. Don’t tell me that those dated systems on the P-3C, especially the APS-115, are even comparable to the Morskoi Zmei system on the Il-38.
Harry
If anything in the IN can match the below let me know…..
The Harpoon Stand-Off Land Attack Missile (SLAM) launched from the P-3C Orion aircraft provides commanders with the ability to immediately deploy a long range responsive platform that can remain on-station for extended periods of time, retask targets in flight, and deliver up to four over-the-horizon precision weapons in minutes. The same aircraft can then remain on station and continue to target other platforms’ missiles by the use of its Electro-Optical, Rapid Targeting System (RTS) and real time data link capabilities.
The AN/ALQ-158(V) Adaptive Controlled Phased Array System [ACPA] VHF sonobuoy receiving antenna system amplifies reception of sonobuoy signals. The ACPA now consists of: Two AS-3153/ALQ-158(V) Blade Antennas are installed; only omni-directional reception is provided; AM-6878/ALQ-158(V) Radio Frequency Amplifier equipment receives and amplifies the signals sent from the blade antennas and passes these amplified signals on to the AN/ARR-78 ASCL receiver.
AN/ARR-78(V)1 Advanced Sonobuoy Communications Link [ASCL] Receiver contains 20 receiver modules, each capable of accepting RF operating channels 1-99 (those sonobuoy channels now in use and those being developed for future use). All 20 receiver modules may be tuned to any one of the sonobuoy operating frequencies. The ASCL consists of a Radio Receiver, Receiver Control/On-Top Position Indicator (OTPI), Control Indicator, and Receiver Indicator. Two R-2033/ARR-78(V)1 Radio Receiver units receive acoustic data for the SASP. Each has four auxiliary function channels which allow the TACCO to monitor the sonobuoy audio channels, BT light off detection, and OTPI reception. The C-10127/ARR-78(V)1 Receiver Control unit provides manual control of the OTPI receiver only, permitting the pilot to select the OTPI receiver and tune it to any one of the 99 channels. The C-10126/ARR-78(V) Control Indicator is the primary manual control for the ASCL Set is the control indicator. Each of the two units installed allows the operator to select and program any of the 20 receiver modules. Each of the two ID-2086/ARR-78(V)1 Receiver Indicator units simultaneously displays the status of all 20 receiver modules on a continuous basis.
The AN/UYS-1(V) Single Advanced Signal Processor System [SASP] is a digital processor designed for the conditioning, analysis, processing, and display of acoustic signals. The SASP System is comprised of two basic elements. The TS-4271/UYS-1(V)10 Analyzer Detecting Set, also called the AU, is installed with a primary function of processing acoustic signals through the use of a Spectrum Analyzer TS-4271/UYS-1(V). It is protected from power transients by a PP-7467/UYS-1(V) Power Interrupt Unit (PIU). The CP-1808/USQ-78(V) SASP Display Control Unit (DCU), contains a programmable, modularity expandable system containing two independent computer subsystems, a System Controller, and a Display Generator (DG) and is also protected by a PIU. The DG also provides hardware interface to two Commandable Manual Entry Panels (CMEPs) C-11808/USQ-78(V), and two Multi-Purpose Displays (MPDs) IP-1423/ USQ-78(V). The two manual entry panels provide the operator an interface to control system operating modes and MPD visual presentations.
With the AN/ALQ-78A Countermeasures Set the existing Countermeasures Set (AN/ALQ-78) is modified by an ECP which improved both maintainability and performance. This ECP was first introduced in the P-3C Update II (ECP-955 for production aircraft and ECP-966 for retrofit aircraft).
The AN/ARS-5 Receiver-Converter Sonobuoy Reference System, a 99 Channel SRS, permits the continuous monitoring of a sonobuoy location from a stand-off position. The SRS provides “fly to” reference data to the CP-2044. It was fit into Lockheed I-9 aircraft serial 5812 Bureau Number 163005 and subsequent production aircraft and was retrofit into production P-3C Update III Aircraft.
The AN/ARC-187 Ultra High Frequency Radio Set provides for a satellite communications capability. The two installed AN/ARC-143 UHF Radios were replaced by two AN/ARC-187 UHF Radios with the incorporation of ECP-988. This ECP is applicable to all P-3C Update III Aircraft. The AN/ARC-187 was installed in the P-3C Update III production aircraft delivered in May 1988 and subsequent. Retrofit installation by Lockheed Martin field teams has been completed.
The CP-2044 Digital Data Computeris a single cabinet airborne computer equipped with high-throughput microprocessors, increased memory capacity, a dual bus system, and built-in diagnostics. Improvements to the CP-901 have resulted in a design which dramatically increases performance while maintaining the CP-901 footprint and significantly reduces weight and power requirements. Main shared memory is increased to one megaword, with an additional one megaword available for memory growth. In addition, each of the processor modules contain one megaword of local memory. These design improvements and the use of Ada language will accommodate future processing requirements and keep the system viable throughout the 1990s. Performance improvements are made possible by 15 new six by nine inch printed circuit cards. The CP-2044 features three Motorola 68030 microprocessors and card slots for four additional processors. Functions of the previously external AN/AYA-8 or OL-337(V)/AY Logic Units and the CV-2461A/A are incorporated in the CP-2044.
The AN/ARN-151(V)1 Global Positioning System [GPS] provides highly accurate navigation information. The five-channel receiver processor unit continuously tracks and monitors four satellites simultaneously, while the fifth channel tracks another satellite for changeover to maintain an acceptable geometry between satellites.
The AN/ALR-66A/B(V)3 Electronic Support Measures [ESM] Set provides concurrent radar warning receiver data (threat data) along with ESM data (fine measurement of classical parametric data). The AN/ALR-66B(V)3 Set provides increased sensitivity and processing improvements over its predecessor, the AN/ALR-66A(V)3. Further refinements to the operational flight program and the library will provide an operator tailorable library. The AN/ALR-66B(V)3 provides inputs to the EP-2060 Pulse Analyzer to detect, direction find, quantify, process, and display electromagnetic signals emitted by land, ship, and airborne radar systems.
PAF FanThat was exactly my orginal point to Victor, your actually agreeing with me. As to behind teh scenes diplomacy and if India did infact express “displeasure” during the frigate deal, you and I dont have access to that infiormation…..
PAF FanThese ships were modernised with Phalanx, a French EW suite, Harpoons and Swedish Torpedos, if the Indian Navy were happy with that, well, that says alot about the Indian Navy…..
You are missing the whole point about the debate though, weapons transactions will occur between Pakistan and other nations irrespective of Indias displeasure……
PAF FanDude
I really dont think the Indian government goes around disrupting lucrative trade relations in the hope of having a tiny chance of delaying a weapons deal, the threat of retaliation is too big for it to be cosndiered “low risk”….
PAF FanVictor
We are going round in circles here. I dont think you understanjd what I am saying. Yes, India can do that, I stated thyat myself, but like China, it will have little or no effect. If the Indian Army tell teh government to buy Bofors or another Swedish iteam, the Indian government wont deny them this just because Pakistan is buying RBS-70, do you now understand?
PAF FanNot necessarily. The seller doesn’t need the buyer any more or less than the buyer needs the seller. The buyer needs the high tech, the seller needs the market.
Also, regarding trade, China can’t just decide not to trade with a major country, especially a country in the EU. China, as much as people want to believe otherwise, is governed by the same rules as anyone else, especially under the WTO regime.
Victor
Your understanding of trade relations is over simplified. China can simply give a huge airliner contract to Boeing instead of Airbus to show its displeasure. India can do the same. That is not a breach of WTO rules. The point is that it threatened this to no avail. These tactics will not work with the sophisticated economies. China can punish trade partners in many,many ways.
The fact of the matter is that nations will sell arms to whoever signs on the dotted line, these will be sold to Pakistan and there is simply very little India can do about it economically.
The only problems Pakistan will have are with countries like Russia and US, where the problems are political, not economic.
If we went by your logic Pakistan woukld not have frecived any of the following
South Africa = Missiles, spare Mirages
France = Subs, Mistral, Mirage upgrade, Crotale 4000, Thales sea radars
Sweden = RBS-70, Giraffe, lisence for MFI-17
UK = Frigates, Lynx choppers,
Italy = Grifo radar lisence
India is a major trade partner with these countries and also buys arms from them, but it has not stopped the above recent aqquisitions.
PAF FanVictor
I would not be suprised if Chinas trade with EU countries was ten times that figure. The pure and simple fact is that when it comes to high tech weapons, countries like India, China and Pakistan need countries like US, Sweden and France far more then they need us. I dont think you should be under any illusions about that……
PAF FanIt’s not a guarantee for sure but it sure is a low cost method of putting big monkey wrenches in people’s acquisition plans 🙂
Not really, at one point in the 90s Dassult were offering M2K-5s to IAF and PAF at the same time, its no big problem whatsoever.
Serious aqusition plans are a long and complex process and wont stop because an other country makes an offer. Look at France and the M2K-5 sale to Tawain? The Chinese could not stop it despite there huge trade with France, and with respect, India does not have as much clout as China…
PAF FanVictor
I think the sales and marketing people at the likes of SAAB, Dassault etc are more intelliegnt then you give them credit for. I am sure they are aware of the political manourverings or gestures India makes (and vice versa) when dealing with Pakistan. They are capitalists and are in it for the money, they would take a “sale” of 60 Gripens by Pakistan over the “interest” of India and vice versa.
Having said that, historically nations have sold to both countries and there is little the other can do about it!
Sweden has sold Bofors to India and the advanced RBS-70 MANPADS and Giraffe radar to Pakistan
France has sold Subs and Mirage upgrades to Pakistan and Mirage 2000s to India.
Expressing an interest in Gripen is not guarantee whatsoever of preventing Pakistan from doing so……
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