PAF FanBecause , like I have said a hundred time to several Indian posters now, THEY DONT GIVE OUT ACTUAL NUMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PAF FanThe point is that you cannot count the P-3Cs until they land in Pakistan and get handed over to PN.
Same goes for AH-1s and PA.
OTOH, Indian defence orders are unlikely to be disrputed because they are paid with hard cash and the suppliers don’t put strings.
There is more certainty of IN getting MiG-29Ks than PN getting P-3Cs soon.
Dream on dude, IN has not even decided what it wants, and as to your Russian friends delivering look at how long it has take to deliver the SU-30s and the various problems India has had with almost every piece of Russian kit, I for one will be happy for them to take Indias hard cash again and take the Indian forces and taxpayer for a ride…..
PAF FanDefine “significant.” Is it 5? 50? 500? 5000? 😮
Given the sanctions driven shortages and past record, it is reasonable to assume the opposite of what you claim.
France has never sanctioned Pakistan, please explain the recent deliveries of Mistral systems, upgraded Mirages and Agostas if we were under “sanction driven shortages”!?
I think between 50-100 may be a rough guestimate
PAF FanThe bills are on the floor and it is not “my Uncle said” type thing. Do you want me to post the bills and laws passed again? :diablo:
As to the conditionalities, it was made explicitly by the White House in a briefing after the $3 billion aid was announced at Camp David in June 2003.
http://islamabad.usembassy.gov/wwwhusvisit030602.html
Like I said, promsies are one thing. But U.S will not deliver anything unless Pakistan keeps meeting its benchmarks. There is no free lunch and here are no free P-3Cs.
Yes I agree, US equipment comes with strings, whats your point?
PAF FanOh please, just get over it. Scrounging for vague references in lines that merely put “PN” and “P-3C” together, does’nt transfer new aircraft into your inventory. Funny thing is that you mentioned the request for funding, which means that funds have’nt even officially been allocated yet, but, you still presume that it’s a confirmed order. Laughable.
Another gem. You have 3 “types” but blissfully ignore the actual and very small number of those types in inventory.
How far do you think Karachi is from Jamnagar? 😀
The primary role of the carrier is to defend the fleet, one that can carry out stand off missile strike at long range. Putting the fleet itself within the radius of the SHAR keeps the actually carrier slightly further away. Second, when it approaches closer, Mirages may have the range with 2 fuel tanks but their supposed escorts still remain point defence fighters. Finally, neither have good performance nor endurance in lo-lo.
Yet another gem? The IAF has three Su-30 squadrons – No.20, No.24 and No.30. 😀
PAF’s situation changed radically by then? Sigh….I guess that you actually did extrapolate “requests” to adding F-16s, J-10s et al 😀
You asked for proof Harry and I gave it, it, thats an official US government document, and count for more then your nonsense, it clearly states teh US (NOT PAKISTAN!) will privide funding for PN Orions, make of that what you will, but I am tired of repeatedly pointing out the obvious to you…..
As I demonstrated to you friend Nitin.Nirav or whatever, its resonable to assume Pakistan has a significant number of exocets. Can I give you exact numbers? No, can you tell me the amount of bullets in the Indian Army?
Dude, IN will have to get with Mirage/F-7 range to launch any tupe of missile in your inventory at the momment. Lets not pretend the IN is in Tomohawk territory just yet….
an F-7 with 3 fuel tanks and sidewinders can do the escort job should you come within 100 miles of our coast, and essentially thats all Pakistan needs to worry about, what the IN needs to worry about are
air and sub launched exocet
air and sub launched harpoon
Mirages, P-3s, Atalntiques, Sea Kings and Agostas…..
If the Indian carrier is out of Mirage strike range, then (by simple logic) Pakistan is out iof Klub range
PAF FanSame link and asinine conclusion as before. Just how does a “request” translate to anything close to a contract being signed? 😀
So, if F-35s were “requested”, we’d have to add them to the orbat too? Not a bad way to increase your strength, overnight. :p
Harry
Do you delibirately seek to mislead and lie or do you fail to read documents properly?
Its CLEARLY STATES
FMF will seek to fund the P-3Cs, anyone who reads the document can understand that. Do you actually know what FMF is? Are you aware of government to government sales procedures?
I suggest we end this here, as now you are clutching at straws. It may not comfort you to know we are getting P-3Cs, but I suggest you try being more honourable in how you debate on the forum and not seek to mislead…
PAF FanEvery such transfer will go through annual Congressional approval and given the history of US-Pak relations, you cannot count on planes “on order” as usuable assets until they are actually delivered.
I pointed out the bills pending in US Congress in another thread. A retired Senate Armed Services staffer recently told me this:
Wow a senate staffertold you that? Thats funny, another one told me we were in line for the F-22 after the USAF!
Yes, congress needs to approve it, but please, lets keep the “my mates, best friends, uncles dog told me” out of this heh!?
PAF FanI do clearly recall a link that you posted, that had absolutely nothing to do with PN’s alleged acquistion of 8 new P-3Cs. I’m sorry but it does seem pretty insulting that you could simply go forth and make up what you please, unabated. The most recent being the ridiculous claim that AM-39s in PN inventory are so much more advanced than others and the PN being the second largest AM-39 operator, among other gems.
You just shot yourself in the foot there, unless you’re asserting (from god knows what evidence, again) that DACT in the PAF has decisively proven the F-7P superior to the F-16. Sure, an instructor sitting in a MiG-21 or an experienced pilot in a Jaguar have ‘shot down’ Mirage-2000s but those are purely selective incidents and given the overall capabilties of the mentioned aircraft, it’s a no brainer on which aircraft would be preferred in the end.
You don’t need to look at DACT – just look at the usefulness of TVC in manueverability, transient performance and acceleration and the TWR, not to mention the optimisation for low level flight. Bill Gunston once said that no fighter could stay behind a SHAR if the pilot did’nt want him there. An exaggeration perhaps, but not a great one. Since neither the SHAR nor Mirage/F-7 are currently BVRAAM equipped, how does that make dogfighting, amateur?
Lastly, there’s certainly no conclusive report of the F-7s performance vs an F-14 or the “number of times”. You’ve also mentioned the F-7P/PG in a long range, heavily loaded, lo-lo escort role, something that quite far from it’s intended role as a point defence fighter under an intensive GCI net.
How do you know where the fleet would be operating from? Once thing is certain though – the range and endurance of the Su-30 operating from Loheagon and Jamnagar and the fact that SHARs are getting IFR.
Harry
What part of “funding for P-3Cs” in the link are you having trouble understanding?
With 3 types of aircraft that can launch exocet and our subs being able to fire the sub launched version I said “I would not be suprised if Pakistan may be the largest exocet operator”, please dont misqoute me, its not the first time you and others have donw that and I expect not the last….
I am not doubting teh harrier is a good plane, but as even you have pointed out, alot will deopend on pilot factor and this is what I actually said
With regards to where the Indian carrier operates, you are putting the cart before the horse here. The Indian carrier will not be a threat to Pakistan if its operating a stones throw away from Bombay harbour, it will only be attacked when it nears Pakistani coastal waters and that , my dear Harry, is well with Mirage range….
When you have more then a squadron of SU-30s and Harriers have IFR then we can debate again, but by then PAF’s situation with regards to equipment will have changed radically as well……
PAF FanGolden Arrow
PAF stated Chinese avionics have improved, is this such a “tall claim” to make!?
PAF FanGolden Arrow
Thats all I stated orginally, that these are very much in the pipeline and you can expect them soon…..
PAF FanWell, my my Harry, I must be in a good mood today, here, for the nth time is an official link confirming the extra P-3s, again, I will understand if you need even more evidence, bt tried ringing Colin Powell and he just simply refuses to take my calls……
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/aid/fy2005/CBJ05_SouthAsia.pdf
PAF FanPAF Fan, please spare us the BS on “8 new P-3Cs”, “newer model AM-39s” and a “larger inventory”. None of those repeatedly spouted assertions have ever been backed up by evidence.
The SHAR’s TVC and tremendous TWR giving it a noted standard of maneuverability, is no news. They have also seen DACT against Rafale-Ms of Flotille-12F, not once but twice. Theoretically, a poor Mirage-III/V or F-7P/PG stands no chance in the close-in scenario, especially since you’re talking about heavily loaded ones, operating at the edge of their radius. SHARs will always be operating within the radar coverage of their fleet and Ka-31s, not to mention the ultra long range MRASWs at Dabolim. They have often intercepted F/A-18s, P-3s and Vikings without tripping the passive ESM on any of the latter. The primary responsibility of the Viraat is to protect the fleet, in this case, the ones offloading Klubs onto target at very long ranges. Strike comes next. They are soon to commence with IFR trials.
4 Mirages = 4x AM-39s. Do you honestly think that just four of these, with a limit range of just 50 km (for a block-2), actually threaten a heavily escorted carrier strike group? It just took one burst from a Corvus during Falklands, to decoy an AM-39 away safely. Element of surprise is also neccessary but when the large MRASWs deploy their Harpoon at more than twice the range of the AM-39 for stand-off capability, they compromise the former for the Mirages.
Don’t ignore the fact that the 2 P-3Cs are also critical ASW assets. Losing them is a majority of the ASW capability lost. Even 12 subsonic AsHMs need to get through the intensive long range SA-N-17 coverage, CIWS, Barak/Kashtan, active and passive ECM. Ludicrously assuming that they actually do, multiple hits would be needed to sink even a smaller warship.
Most of the operating area is also within Su-30 range. You’d need far more than the mentioned diminutive strike group to carry out such a mammoth task and by gosh, the IN certainly train for far more threatening situations.
Oh yes we can. It would also help you if actually read other’s posts before yours, prior to claiming that Argentinian pilots were outmatched to the extent that their aircraft did’nt matter.
Harry
for a moderator I would say your posting need to calm down a bit, afterall, I cant count the amount of “BS” you have posted……
The order of the new P-3Cs can be found on US Gov documents at fas.org, I cannot remember the number of time I have posted official US links here to satisfy the questions of posters such as yourself, I dont expect you to take my word, but what I do expect you to do is do research before you write “BS” to use your own colourful terms.
The number of times PAF F-7s have done DACT against F-14s and F-16s et al is also numerous and the funny thing about DACT (As you had no hesitation pointing out several times in the Cope India thread) is that the pilot matters alot. Despite F-7s beating F-16s at PAG CCS I am sure the F-16 is stil a formidable adversary, would you not agree?
So lets stop relying on dog fight results to justify strategy here, its rather amatuer.
Any Pak v India conflict will not be a re run of the Falklands.
PAF will be DEFENDING our coast, so we will not be operating at extreme range al Argintine AF flying from Rio Grande to the Falklands, it will just be defending Pakistans coastline, so I would be interested to hear your theory on why we would be operating at extreme ranges, dude, PAF does not want to visit bombay or any Indian city, despite Indias keenes to bomb ours….
PAF FanConsidering the fact that you have in the past pointed out that WEstern avionics is better, I find this claim amusing.
I know that PAF itself has said that it did not like Chinese avionics in the past. Here is a quote from June AFM from FC-1 project chief Shahid Lateef.
Lateef also said PAF is looking for a Western radar and Chinese radars were well behind Western tech. There you have the PAF itself clearly stating – 3 times in a paragraph, that they desperately want Western avionics and radar and Chinese stuff ain’t good.
Now, I’m personally not claiming that the Chinese avonics are automatically bad because it is made in China. But I’m pointing out that it is the Pakistani project chief himself who thought so.
Can anyone tell me why Lateef would trash the people making his aircraft 3 times in 3 sentences if he thought highly of their ability to make superior radar and avionics?
But what I find amusing here is that people of a certain nationality, have made pompous claims of getting “advanced” Western radars and avionics and now scurry to post inanities once that claim has gone the way of the dodo.
Golden arrow
Please refer me to any of my posts where I have claimed western avionics are better then Chinese. Or is this a case of you being more familiar with my posts then I am!? 😉
Dude
Latif was refering to an assesment of Chinese avionics done 2 years ago. You are using word manipulation to suggest this was a recent post. Can we try and be honest in our postings here.
PAF FanThe numbers there were never a real secret. Most times overestimated, when less really. 😉
The Exocet has a limited lifetime! To keep a higher number in storage is not a clever idea. At least, when in a real war the numbers of firing-opportunities are limited. 🙂
That was sort of my point, and applicable to almost any nation that uses sophisticated air to air and air to ground missiles
PAF Fan4 Mirages, 3 P3s and 6 F7s?
To be fair any package is going to stand a chance if they get the hits and in the right places. How many ASMs can a P3 carry? I assume its more than 2 or even 4 and I expect it would be a lot more. If you can get them into position without being detected or successfully intercepted they would have a good chance causing some serious damage. Are the Mirages carrying ASMs? If so how many? 2 each? Coming from adifferent direction very fast, very low? Well if so you have divided the defender resources and complicated their response.
What should the IN commander do? Go after the P3s who can fire a large amount of ASMs if they get in range, go after the faster moving Mirages assuming these are detected of course, or go after both? Surely the answer is to go after both, there really isn’t a choice. You can’t forego one threat in favour of maximising defensive effect on another. So at this point the question is one of resources. How many defenders do you have? What defensive systems do you have and what layers of defence are available?
Then we come onto the F7s. I know far less about this aircraft than I should. Is it a fighter, fighter/bomber, ASM shooter, escort fighter? What are its weapons, radar, range and payload capabilities. At this point some might say what are the calibre of the pilots but I don’t think the abilities of the PAF crews can be called into question. If I am right in assuming that the F7s are a bona fide escort group then the IN defenders not only have to direct resources onto the attacking P3s and Mirages, they also have to deal with the F7s tasked with defending the strike package. So in truth the IN defenders will have quite a job to deal with but that doesn’t mean the strike package is going to succeed. Personally I’d like a few more assets but hey what commander wouldn’t and also you can’t bring into question the abilities of the Indian Navy, their commanders, aircrews or ratings. If you are asking me the risk to both sides is not worth the bother. Either way it would be a close run thing leading to yet another stalemate.
Don’t get me wrong. Staff colleges in Pakistan and India will be working through these problems on a day to day basis and if they are as professional as I think they are they will be relying on the politicians to make sure they never have to do it for real. If the shooting starts, whatever the outcome it will not be the fault of the troops but rather the fault of the respective governments for failing to maintain the peace.
Does this go some way to revealing my views on the subject? 🙂
Phil
An excellent post! I agree, at the end of the day, factors that we really cant define like pilot skill, electronic warfare etc will effect the outcome considerably, and the PAF strike may well fail and lose all its assets, but if you look at the wider picture, the loss of 4-6 planes compared to the potential loss of Indias only carrier and a few ships is a pay off that is well worth it in the eyes of Pakistans CinC……
Regardless of the air and naval capability lost, the propganda value of criplling or sinking the Indian carrier will be immense. PAF and IAF will be losing planes regardless, at the end of the day a Pakistani commander has to weigh up the risks, in my view sacrificing 4-6 planes for an Indian carrier is worth it…. I am sure even an Argintinian commander in 1982 would agree with those odds
F-7 will be purely in the escort role, we can arm them with 3 fuel tanks and 4 AAMs for this mission
I have seen pictures on pakdef.info of PN P-3Cs carrying 4 Harpoons externally, I dont know if they can carry more internally
In terms of Indian Navy air defence, I am unaware of how many harriers they can keep up on CAP with only 14 servicable aircraft, maybe an (intelliegent) Indian poster then enlighten us?
Sign In
