So back to teh debate, which was cleverly sidelined!

Can someone post me what missile defences any IN carrier group will have!?

Phil, Jonesy, I still stand by teh fact that a strike formation of the follwing could take down the carrier

4 Mirages
2 P-3Cs
6 F-7s

For people to say PAF may not be able to dedicate resources, if they knew it was a last chance strike aganst a carrier, my personal beleif is that they could easily spare the above resources.

For teh PAF sinking the carrier would not only dent the IN significantly, but would present a great psychological boost during anywar, as a result I think Masroor AFBs commander would go all out!

The first combat carrier loss since WW11?

Golden Arrow
The PAF now say that teh latest Chinese avionics meet their requirments, they were going to fit an Italian or French design and now the first 50 will have a Chinese radar.

Considering the fact that you know almost NOTHING about the capabilities of the radar being fitted, please explain your statement

“a third of PAF’s planes and perhaps more will have inferior avionics and radars as compared to Western ones.”

Is this purely a case of “its chinese it must be bad” that some posters on this forum (of a certian nationality) are found of advocating!?

Secondly 70% of teh present PAF fighters have Grifo or APG-66

But many other sources mention it. Crosscheck my boy, cross check. It always helps! :p

Nitin, please, this is getting beyond the ridiculous, lets leave it here, there is now one single reliable source that will find the number of exocets in the inventory, as someone else pointed out, I can tell you the number of bullets the Pakistan Army has either! so lets just “assume” we have enough to equip our aircraft, just as we can “assume” we have enough magics of sidewinders to equip our fighters, this debate is getting more and more silly

Seahawk
My point was that we are not dealing with F-14s or F-18s here, just basic SHARS, and I am assuming the P-3 strike would be part of a strike package as I outlined earlier (with F-7 or Mirages acting as escorts), it certainly would not be a case of P-3s acting alone….

Dude
I have already said, Pakistan has the follwing aircraft all equuipped with Exocets

3-4 Atlantiques
6 Sea Kings
12 Mirages with Agave radar

Do you seriously believe, “in the name of Zeuse’s butt hole” we dont have enough Exocets to equip our fleet?

Just a few months ago we were conducting joint sub and air launched exocet firings

I am assuming that we may not have enough sidewinders now, or enough Harpoons, or enough Mistrals, or enough RBS-70s, or enough TOWs as I dont know our exact inventory numbers……

I would “assume”, and thats all I can do, that we have enough missiles to equip our fleet,

Brazil faces no major threat and does not seek “power projection” or has any expansionist tendancies, suppose they just need a basic interception capability to secure the integrity of their air space….

PAF Fan,

I can understand the reasoning behind what your saying here, but, in all honesty I think you may be overestimating the PAF’s capabilities here.

The AM39 weapon system is not one to attempt to engage a naval force possessing fastjet aviation/AEW of any kind. On a low profile launch the block2 weapon has a max optimism range of 50km. This was fine for the Argentine Armada as the RN had no radar system capable of looking over the horizon continuously its Etendards could come in blissfully undetected and launch with little opposition.

This happy state of affairs does not extend to the Pak AF unfortunately for them. The IN has low altitude radar coverage out to, allegedly, 120kms or so against a Mirage-type target. No factor of suprise means that your strikers are running the last 70km to firing range subsonically, laden down with a heavy missile and tanks and exposed as hell!. You can suggest that they would have F-7 escort, but, how much of a combat radius does an F-7 have in sustained low altitude flight?. Furthermore isnt a MiG-21 an altitude fighter like the Mirage? At low altitude, in the SHARs arena of choice, does an F-7 have any advantage at all over a well-handled Mk.51? I rather think not!.

Furthermore you seem to be theorising that the PAF commander would dispatch ALL his exocet shooters in one massed attack. I’d somehow doubt that. If he was smart he would have to know that even 12 AM39’s released perfectly is not enough to stop a fleet possesing hard and soft-kill defences. The AM39 (block 1 certainly) is just not a proven reliable weapon. Like I said on an earlier thread, in the Falklands, not a single ship that employed decoying procedures was hit by an Exocet despite missiles being inbound on them.

The risks of having his whole tactical antiship capability shattered when the most optimistic outcome isnt guaranteed to be sufficient to send the IN home doesnt seem like a good bet to me. I would be suprised if an operational commander were to try it!.

This being the case he, imho, would be far smarter using his marpat assets like Harry suggested to take hit and run long-range Harpoon shots to try and attrite IN pickets and attempt to draw the IN CAP out of position. Then 4 or so Mirages can try to use the gap before the carrier can launch a relief CAP. All the time they should be shooting for the pickets – there isnt enough of them to risk attrition going directly for the carrier. Its not a very good situation for the strikers!.

Put the Agosta’s outside the carriers home port and deal with the issue there its a much higher probability of success attack!.

Jonesy
I only stated the number of aircraft PAF would have available for strike/escort in the anti-shipping role, your right, it would be a foolhardy commander to risk all his assets in one strike (but the greater the risk the greater the success?), 20-24 aircraft. PAF has about 10 F-7 sqds, so dedicating one for escort for the Mirages may not be a problem, especially as these planes will be providing air defence for Masroor when not on escort duty.

I will try and find a link, but am pretty sure that the exocets in PAF inventory are the latest block after the agosta deal with France and the Atlantique upgrades we purchased exocets

Your right, we may be detected from far out, but once the harriers are engaged the IN fleet will only have short range weapons to protect itself with (anti-aircraft missile types in IN inventory maybe someone can post?)

Regards the F-7 V SHAR debate

At low level I really dont know, but certainly in terms of radar (Grifo) and AAM (Aim-9L) I feel the advantge may be with teh F-7 (I would say that!) 😀 I feel these engagments may well come down to pure pilot skill and obviously I have an opnion on that as well! 😀

With regards P-3C/Harpoon
8 more P-3Cs are on order to add to the 2 we have and I am sure PNs will be streacthed hunting IN Kilos and attacking ships, I am sure one or two may be available to help in any attack taking out the IN Escorting vessels and thus leaving a gap for the Mirages to attack the carrier, thus rather then a mass strike using all assets, any PN/PAF attempt may stack up like this

4 Mirages with Exocet
6 F-7 Escorts
2 P-3Cs with Harpoon

Remembering PN P-3Cs have been pictured carrying 4 Harpoon rounds, your suddenly looking at a missile attack of

8 Harpoons from afar
4 Exocets close in

If the F-7s have engaged the Harriers at this stage (and lets remember the F-7s dont even need to “win” the engagement, just keep the harriers off the back of the mirages) then it comes down to Harpoons and Exocets facing Barak missiles and people taking their chances…..

Ref the Agosta, what the PN plans for the babies in wartime I really dont know, but the lats one with MESMA is nearing completion and this capability should put all the Indian coast within reach