Nitin yoru right, I dont have a pice of paper stating exactly how many exocets Pakistan has right now, but we have apporx 22 aircraft that we use to launch air to surface exocets from, dont you thinkits pretty safe to assume we have enough to equip them? Or do you expect us to try and divide up or missiles between aircraft!? :diablo:
why do you always talk about purely one-on-one engagements ??
what makes you think that the IAF will not come in the picture ??
the Indian armed forces will make use of all available hardware to them in case of hostilities…..
so, the ” 20 – 24 ” odd fighters might face any A/C from the MiG-21,MiG-29,Su-30mki, the sea harrier….
Nirav
I feel like I am banging my head against a brick wall answering some or the posters here! Did you actually READ the post I was replying to!?
Someone questioned how many aircraft PAF could dedicate to the anti-shipping mission and I listed 20-24.
I am well aware these may face IAF aircraft, but my point was the Harriers alone are wholly inadequate as air defence for your carrier, I am sure you will agree!
The entire point is whether the PAF has enough aircraft to do all that you note. In any war scenario, the PAF will be hard pressed defending itself and attempting to strike back- the no of airframes & resources available- esp F16’s which are tasked with N deterrence- would be limited at best, esp when it comes to supporting a Naval strike package.
Pakistans best and perhaps only bet are its Agosta’s.
Dude
12 Aircraft are dedicated anti-ship with agave radar, these can at MINIMUM expect an equal number of F-7 escorts, so your looking at 20-24 odd fighters, all with superior avionics and weapons then the Harriers, so please remain convinced the Agostas are the only threat….. 😀
Thats an interesting claim about Pakistan having a huge store of exocets. Any proof to back the above claim? The UN Arms register and SIPRI both show limited transfers at best.
Thanks,
Nitin
Dude
The exact number we have is probably a state secret, and I doubt the all numbers would be open source, but lets use some common sense.
Pak Navy has 6 Sea Kings, 3 Atlantiques and 12 Mirages all capable of firing excocets and all having test fired them in recent exercises. They will certainly have enough to ensure a huge number for any attack on an Indian carrier
The Falklands war was not won or lost because the British had the AIM9L. Every shot was taken from the rear hemisphere of the target aircraft and if you ask any RN or RAF SHAR pilot what they think they would tell you they could have done the same job with the AIM9B. Also don’t forget that the Argentine Air Force had BVR missiles as well. Not that it cost them the war but it was an advantage the British did not have. It matter not one jot who was to blame for what mistakes a war machine is not effective or otherwise because one advantage or another it is down to who is the luckiest, who made the fewest mistakes (by igh commanders or the squaddie on the front line) if you cannot bring it all together into one coherent package it is not worth the risk of fighting.
That brings me to the topic of the thread. While this naval/air battle is going on, what is happening on the India/Pakistan border? Events there might make the whole effort redundant anyway. On the other hand they might be contiguous and reliant upon each other. Theres no point in talking tactics if the strategy is all to **** and vice versa. Or in other words, the Pakistan Air Force might be kicking ten shades of sh1t out of the Indian Navy whilst the Indian Army is overrunning Masroor. No event can really be taken in isolation. 🙂
Good point Phil
The naval battle is very much a low priority for Pakistan. Any Indo/Pak war will be won as part of air/land battle…….
But this thread makes a nice diversion to the usual air/land stuff! 😀
From what I’ve been told, manueverability is one area where the SHAR can actually hold it’s own against the Rafale-M, after examination of the two joint excercises. At one point, the IAF actually regarded them as inferior to the MiG-21 but they actually managed to get the upper hand against Mirage-2000s, during DACT at TACDE. While the RN’s SHARs deployed AIM-9Ls, IN’s SHARs started off with Magic-1s which were’nt all-aspect AAMs and eventually got dual rails for Magic-2s, developed by DRDO.
SHARs are still dependant on offboard sensors and the two fighter controllers for a good period of the mission. Should an intercept be successful though, the ‘La muerta negra’ should have no problems in eating up a Mirage-III/V, esp. if the latter is an Agave-maritime equipped unit, with limited air-to-air modes. Upgrades are still being contemplated and will take place sometime in the future.
An ageing AM-39 with it’s limited range of 50-70 km max and troublesome history, is hardly a threat to a carrier battlegroup. An escorted P-3C Harpoon strike is more realistic, although the former are critical ASW assets for the PN.
“An ageing AM-39 with it’s limited range of 50-70 km max and troublesome history, is hardly a threat to a carrier battlegroup”
Guess you were never in the shoes of Sandy Woodward in 1982 if you genuienly think that!?
The difference between Argintinas Mirages and Pakistans models are huge, Pakistan has a large store of Exocets and the latest variant,
The INs Harriers on the other hand are virtually the same as they were delivered in 1983…….
I think PAF Mirages will be escorted, be it with other mirages and/or F-7s all of which are based at Masroor. If it is a grand attempt to deliver a knock out blow, then you can expect F-16s and in the near future JF-17s, all of whichn will be illiuminating and detecting the harriers well before the harriers spot them, one the harriers engage the escorts, the way is then paved for the Mirage 3 with exocets to be free to do their job……
Harry
It was British pilots who gave the RN the edge in 1982, not their aircraft
Could it be that India would call some Su-30s for help, then? But I agree, the ROSE Mirages are of much better standard than the Argentinian ones once were, the FRS Mk.51 would have had much harder times than back in 1982. Yet I seriously doubt they would have been left alone with no IAF cover coming.
BTW, there were some plans to re-equip the FRS 51 with ELTA EL/M-2032M, I wonder how far this idea went so far..
Your right, I assume any activity would be given SU-30 cover, which leaves teh question of having teh Harriers in the first place anyway! Whats the point when the IAF, with air to air refuellers and SU-30s, can do a much better job.
The Harrier upgrade was dropped due to costs
Pakistan operates the T-33 and RT-33?
Think we still operate 5-6 for target towing down at Masroor AFB for use over Arabian Sea and Somani firing ranges
Mirages will have Grifo radar (roughly comparable to APG-68) , AIM-9Ls and escorts, the Exocet capable Mirages will be escorted by air defence versions, and dare I say, if it was an attack on Indias carrier, we may even spare 4-6 F-16s to help… This, along with their extensive avionics updates and info feeds from P-3Cs and Ataltiques, will give the Mirages better situational awarness then the Indian Harriers, which have still not revived a significant upgrade since induction into the IN
Which is not the same as a company to government arms sale… which would be the case if it was a non-FMS deal directly with Lockheed. And with a government-to-government deal, the snippets Steve digs out from the Washington catacombs are the thing to go by.
Arthur, all US military sales are government to government, if PAF or any other Air Force for example ordered F-16s, they would officially be purchased by the US Air Force before being handed over to Pakistan
Ahh but you’d have known this for weeks if you were a ‘Scramble’ subscriber, PAF Fan 😀
Agreed: 40 airframes were definitely finalised for transfer under EDA…which tends to support the info that Usman got about 12 being transferred directly to Pakistan for spares/cannibalisation….there’s no US-sourced record of those as they fall outside of the remit of the contract that DynCorp have to refurb the 20 that will be fliers.
Steve ~ Touchdown-News
😀 Indeed I am, and its due to scramble I have a very full email inbox now! 😀
So we just cannabilised 12 AH-1Fs instead of putting them into service!?
“government to government arms sales,” was the term used in the article Arthur…
Wow! Steve, I have said it once and I will say it again! Your a GOLDMINE of info! I thought the order was for 40 not 28 though……!?
What? Possible delivery of US F-16s is a fantasy Arthur!? Explain!?