mark_pilkingtonWe had a squadron of RAF Mosquitos in Sydney (618?) at the end of world war two which were fitted for anti shipping strikes to use the DamBaster bouncing bomb and therefore an associated bomb bay modification, perhaps also a version of a “capital ship bomb variant” not sure if there is any link to your issue? of the modified Lancasters.
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonstill a good place for it to end up
setter,
I think the black underside and bare metal is looking suspicously like a USAF a/c it would be interesting to get CrazyMainer etc to check the B29 histories for any “written off” or “converted to components” in Australia in the mid/late 1950’s??
even if what you have is a relict of a USAF B29 rather than an RAAF Washington, it would still appear to be strongly associated with Australia’s nuclear test program at Woomera and if so its still an important part of our military aviation history, and Point Cook would still be an appropriate place for it to end up!!
regards
Mark p
wonders if this ad below should be on Barnstormers??
“Wanted” an Australian “Smithonian”!!! or “Duxford”
Large south Pacific banana republic that made an important contribution to the early pioneering Air Transport and trail blazing, and has had a significant ongoing reliance on aviation for defence, travel, communication, tourism, business/freight etc etc etc – seeks a National place to protect, preserve and celebrate its rich Aviation Heritage!!
[I][(Never has a country so big!, owed so much!, to those who flew!”)[/I]
mark_pilkingtonPictures and histories further add to the intrigue??
Setter,
seems at least one of the aircraft is confirmed as being scrapped at Tocumwal – but WW353 not WW354?? as per the ADF serials site: http://www.adf-serials.com/ from RAAF History cards.
and the other is listed as Edinburgh not Woomera but then the paperwork might have been at the nearest RAAF Base while the A/c was still physically at the range??
WW353 44-62049 s/n 11526
Arrived in Australia 23/09/52, A76-1 not taken up. Used by ARDU for Testing/trials. Storage 16/05/56. Struck off 05/09/56. Sold for scrap, 23/10/56. Scrapped Tocumwal 09/57.
WW354 44-61963 s/n 11440
Arrived in Australia 12/12/52, A76-2 not taken up. Used by ARDU for Testing/trials. Struck off 05/09/56. Sold for scrap 18/01/57. Scrapped Edinburgh 10/57.
RAAF Museum website http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/raaf2/html/body_wash.htm
states:
In 1952 the serial A76 was re-allocated to the Boeing B-29 Superfortress, 88 of which were on lo an to the RAF as Washington BIs. The prototype B-29 had first flown on September 21 1942, and during World War II the B-29’s “Enola Gay” and “Bock’s car” dropped the first two atomic bombs on August 6 and 9 1945, which brought about the Japanese surrender on August 14 1945. Two Washingtons, WW 353 and WW 354 were flown to Australia by RAAF aircrews and arrived at ARDU Trials Flight (later ATU) on September 26 1952 and December 12 1952 respectively. They were used on a number of trials for the UKMOS and by 1956 had flown a total of 174 hours in RAAF service. During 1956 the two aircraft were placed in storage pending disposal decisions from the UKMOS and the USAF. The engines were later removed and the Washington airframes were sold for scrap in 1957.
Both RAAF a/c are depicted in pics located at http://users.chariot.net.au/~theburfs/washpage.html
both pics seem to confirm underwings are definately not black on both RAAF A/c (roundels, “WW number” and anti-ice on leading edge clearly seen) and at least one under fuse is definately not black, while the second is “uncertain” because of shadow?
both pics still lead me to consider they are painted silver rather than bare metal, particularly ww353 which is very uniform and unblemished.
adds further suspicion to a USAF B29? wing piece in Setters hands – no makers plate with s/n anywhere on the parts Setter???????
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkingtonWashington
Setter,
as I said I am happy to be corrected 😉 , I have now got off my backside and looked at the quickest piccie I could find :rolleyes: – Pentland – “Aircraft of the RAAF ’21-’71” page 98 shows WW354 at Tocumwal (telltale hangars – over grown versions of the Werribee B24 asbestos hangar & old Chewing Gum Museum hangar).
No indication of “black paint” underwing or under fuse, and while the forward fuse looks silver dope by level of consistancy, the cowls and rear fuse “blemishes” and inconsitancies might well argue the case for bare metal.
RAAF had two a/c assigned under the A76 prefix from 1952-56, WW353 and WW354 both obviously RAF sourced??.
I know one was scrapped at Tocumwal having seen the undercarriage legs etc in the 1970’s/80’s so perhaps that accounts for WW354 above, I assume then WW353 was scrapped at Woomera and your black and bare metal remanants confirms its colour scheme?
I have seen other RAAF pics that I cannot quickly find that still gave me the overall “opinion” of silver paint as per similar RAAF A/c of the same period, but am always happy to be corrected. :confused:
the same Pentland ’21-71 page 98 shows one of the Percival Princes similarly acquired and it too looks like the post war silver paint/dope rather than bare metal??
In regard to A bomb tests at Woomera etc, Parnell/Boughton “Flypast” page 234 describes the two RAAF “Washingtons” being acquired and allocated along with RAAF Percival Princes and later with RAF Valiants, page 243 describes also at least 4 USAF B29s being involved including 2 tracking the radio active cloud and 2 to take air samples.
Also listed as being involved are RAF Canberra’s, RAF Shackletons, RAAF Lincolns in various roles, and as ground blast targets – the well known RAAF Mustrangs and some RAF Supermarine Swifts (I have seen survivor pics of the swifts still existing today)
Interestingly the Wilson book on RAAF “Lincoln, Canberra F111” describes in detail the use of @12 RAAF Lincolns for similar cloud chasing and air sampling with at least 6 becoming so “hot” and “glow in the dark” that they had to be roped off at Amberley and scrapped, (much of what happened at Woomera seems hushed up, especially the stuff ups?) 🙁
I wonder if the RAF/RAAF Washington “WW353” at Woomera was also similarly contaminated?? and scrapped on site, rather than at Tocumwal like WW354, or even more interesting to ponder is if any of the 4 USAF B29’s in cloud chasing/sampling got contaminated like the 6 RAAF Lincolns??
adding further interesting possible sources of your black and bare metal “residue” parts, and the sliver paint/bare metal debate on the RAAF Washingtons (by the way do your “residue” parts “glow in the dark”????) 😎
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkingtonRAAF Washington
IMHO the photos I have seen of the RAAF B29 all look like its painted silver like the post war RAAF meteors and CAC Mustangs etc in service, rather than bare metal like the wartime NA Mustangs in RAAF service? ie poor defined rivet lines and skin edges, and uniform “colour” rather than slight variations of each aluminium panel due to heat treatment, “grain” reflection etc, but I will defer to a more informed “higher authority”
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkingtonWerribee B24
I am not a member of the group but live in the area and keep in touch with various members so I hope they dont mind this unofficial report –
The B24 project at Werribee is located in one of 4 wooden framed “asbestos sheeting” roofed wartime hangars located on the former Werribee satellite airfield near Point Cook and Laverton.
In January this year (perhaps related to heavy rains) the roof of a second hangar used by the group for storage of completed and unrestored parts collapsed, creating damage to some items and exposing others to the elements and later theft.
As I understand it “Asbestos” sheeting becomes porous as it ages, it has health issues surrounding it (ie the current James Hardie company contraversy here in Australia) but in this case its other poor property of loosing its “water proofing” as it becomes porous is likely to have permitted water damage to the bolts and timber frames of the roof, and also to cause the timber roof to be “over stressed” whenever the porous “asbestos” becomes water logged and significantly heavier after rain.
The Government water board who owns the site responded to the initial evidence of structural failure by closing access to all hangars including the B24 restoration hangar pending an engineering structural assessment of the collapse and the situation of the remaining hangars in case of similar risks.
The B24 group suffered the theft of two fully restored wingtips, and some other items as the collapsed hangar was emptied, and placed all of the material into temporary storage/containers etc. These items are still to be recovered!
I understand the group negotiated access to other temporary workshops in the surrounding suburbs to allow off-site restoration to continue but that workshop suffered theft of tools etc to further delay the project.
I believe the structural review of the remaining hangars in completed and various short term and long term strategies were to be developed to secure their safety and long term preservation (the site and buildings are under a heritage protection).
I understand the B24 group is now returning to some level of access to the main hangar (where the B24 itself has remained in situ all the time).
However they have suffered the set backs of lost time of access to the aircraft and project, the theft of tools and more importantly restored and rare items such as wing tips and even perhaps the added set back of the conversion/future suitability of these buildings for long term use as a permanent museum unless these structural isssues are resolved and corrected?
I am sure the group will resolve those issues and continue on with the B24’s completion, and is deserving of all of our ongoing support.
I am sure the B24 Group would appreciate any assistance anyone can provide in relation to parts, tools and in particular leads of stolen wing tips or New-Old Stock ones if available!!
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkingtonthanks
Moggy and 692al thanks for the support, the Lancaster and Bomber Command loom large in Australia’s military aviation history and I was pleased to be able to assist such a display being acquired.
Dave T and Elliot thanks for your assistance I will follow those leads up
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkington“A Thousand Skies”
Dave,
as you may recall in a post above you were interested in getting a copy of the Kingsford Smith mini series “A Thousand skies” and I mentioned I might be able to track down someone with a copy video’d off TV, I have found an enthusiast who believes he has it and will lend and send it to me next week if he locates it, to allow it to be copied.
I can copy his for you and post you a copy if you are interested? I will need your postal address and some funds to cover the blank tape and postage, if you are interested, and the tape is located I will determine and advise the tape and postage costs
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkingtonAussie Airship Stations
Dave,
in “These are Facts” the autobiography of Air Marshall Sir Richard Williams RAAF, he mentions the interest in airships as early as 1918 with an airship station in Sydney and Melbourne proposed but not proceeded with, in what was the eventual creation of the RAAF in 1921. (page 114)
He later mentions in regard to a trip to Canada/USA in 1924 and and partcularly a visit to the Airship Station at Lakehurst New Jersey “My visit here was of personal interest only for whilst Britain was planning an airship service to Australia by way of India for the future, the airships proposed were far too high a cost to be of any attraction to Australia” (page 160)
He addresses this issue in more detail (page 203) relating to the period of 1930/31 of your own interest ….. .”Following the conclusion of the 14-18 war the British government and also the Governments of the United States and Germany had been pressing on with the development of large rigid airships for international trade. In this Germany led with the Zeppelins similar to those used by her during the war. British airships crossed the Atlantic to Canada and return and the Government was now planning a regular service form England to India. Mooring masts had been constructed in both places and the plan visualised an extension to Australia later. For this service the British Government placed orders for two airships, one to be built by private enterprise and one by the government, they were known as R100 and R101 respectively.
The then Secretary of State for Civil Aviation in London, Lord Thomson was anxious that the service to India be commenced in time to allow him to travl by it and be back in England for an election due to be held soon. The fact that it was planned that this service be extended to Australia caused me to suggest that our liason officer in London, Squadron Leader W Palstra, travl on the first flight. It is possible we were offered a place on it but I cannot remember this with certainty. The Director General of Civil Aviation in London, Sir Sefton Brancker, was also a passenger.
It appears that due to a race against time the R101 was not subjected to the thorough tesitng it might otherwise have had and before it got far into France it crashed, causing the loss of many lives inlcuding those of Thomson, Branker and Palstra. Although the R100 flew from Cardington to Montreal and return, the loss of R101 resulted in the British Government refusing funds for further development of airships and theat was the end of the use of lighter-than-ar craft in British civil aviation.”
It would seem then that the crash of the R101 terminated both the England to India and future extension of service to Australia/NZ, and with it the need for Mooring stations.
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkingtonThe aircraft at Darwin is correctly listed in the ADF Serial website as A59-73 recovered from Gove for restoration and supposed return there for permanent display?
mark_pilkingtonmark V111 Spitfire MV154 (A58-671)
Mark12
I am pleased to hear the aircraft is safe and well, but despite the aircraft’s RAAF service record and apparant destruction? in service, the post war history and survival of the complete airframe in the care and ownership of the Syd Marshall collection at Bankstown Sydney is well documented in print and picture so I would be very surprised that learn that it would legally qualify as remains or parts or project and that status or the obvious inaccuracy of the RAAF history card is somehow protection and exclusion from Australia’s Heritage export laws??.
I have not seen the specific details of its export application or permit so I must take your advice that it was legally exported with approval based on its RAAF service records and condition??, although I personally dont re-call seeing it in the published application or approval list? but I guess all that can all be left to the experts to pursue.
I know this aircraft’s export raised similar passions here in Australia to the Lackland B-24, and was the subject of various local magazine articles and letters to the editor, my original post was intended to be firmly tongue in cheek and not intended to open old wounds, in the intended spirit of my first post, “the first priority is that they survive and be cared for!”
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonMark12, if its still in existance I am sure our customs people would be keen to know, I understand there was no export permit applied or granted for this aircraft, but I thought it had been destroyed in a landing accident?
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonAJ
The Airways Museum picture of Southern Moon states “In the background is an aircraft wearing the marks VH-UGB. These marks were allocated to a Curtiss JN-4D ‘Jenny’ – although the aircraft in the photo does not appear to be one.”
The aircraft in the picture is definately not a Jenny, and I am not sure if the original print is clearer than the web image but the UGB would seem to be open to interpretation? It is definately a large DH type, bigger than a DH60 or even DH9 (large/high rear fuselage) I think that might actually be one of the DH-50A’s VH-UER?
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonImporting or Re-possessing?
not sure if our topic is still on importing, or now on repossessing? aircraft. 😉
but if the Duxford B24 is to go back to Lackland AFB, can We Aussies 😎 please have our historic mark Vb Spitfire back A58-246/MA863 (ex 54 Sqn defence of Darwin against the Japanese), exported and swapped by Duxford to USAF Museum for the B24, and now being restored to represent a US flown A/c from the European theatre? (surely it would be just as impressive at Dayton in its historic and correct colour scheme?)
We would also like the mark V111 Spitfire MV154 (A58-671) apparantly illegally exported from here returned, but I understand that was unfortunately written off in the UK, a sad loss and outcome for all of us! 🙁
Oh and while on the subject of Kermits Sunderland, – can we have that back too or alternatively the Sandringham at the Science Museum, (yes we will share it with the Kiwis :rolleyes: – ex Ansett Airlines and RNZAF) , and also while we are on a roll, the RAAF Bristol Beaufighter Mark 1 in the USAF Museum (wonders if that will go on display in a psydo US scheme 😮 ) , oh and the AFC Maurice Farman Shorthorn in the Canadian National Aviation Museum, and oh um the RAAF Seagull V and Hudson in Hendon, many of the Fireflys/Seafuries and………(I will submit a complete shopping list 🙂 )
I think we all lament the loss of an historic aircraft from our own shores, but unless its one of the last examples left in your own country, I guess we have to prefer them acquired, restored, stored/displayed under cover for posterity somewhere, than to see them lost to us all forever through outside display and exposure to the elements – I personally think a B24 at Duxford in US colours is quite an appropriate memorial to the USAF itself, and I would have thought the USAF Museum would lend aircraft into that establishment as part of its charter in any case???
and surely that display must preserve the aircraft far better than the external display at Lackland, not mentioning the Duxford restoration treatment given to it following transfer?. :confused:
While on the subject of airworthy mosquitos hopefully we should be seeing the NZ production line of all new wood structures as the safest way to put this type back in the air, rather than risking delaminated structures in any of the original aircraft, let alone quality of those early glues?.
regards
Mark P
mark_pilkington“Faith in Australia”
“Faith in Australia”, the Avro X “Southern Moon” purchased by Ulm in 1933 when the ANA Business with Kingsford Smith failed, had its wing modified by L J Wackett (of CAC fame) and was used by Ulm in his own trailblazing flights.
Ulm was lost in a trans pacific flight in the Airspeed Envoy “Stella Australis” in 1934, “Faith in Australia” survived derelict until 1942 when it was bulldozed by Americans into the swamp at the end of Townsville aerodrome , along with other old aircraft, in response to pending japanese air attack.
regards
Mark Pilkington
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