mark_pilkingtonIt’s a pile of scrap as it sits there and if put in a museum it’s still a pile of scrap.
Why not make something out of the metal?
Seriously something could be constructed from it i don’t mean melt it down but build a table or a bench & put that in a museum and use it rather than just as it is.
Im sure you can think of a better idea than a table or a bench?
Yes – I certainly can! making it into a table? or bench? would only convert it from a pile of scrap to a pile of crap.
It clearly has some value left in its “pile of scrap” form to aviation and wartime historians particularly if able to view the nose art, external markings and internal scribblings that RichardW mentioned above.
I’m not sure even the general public would be interested in looking at it simply to see it built into a table or bench – they can go to an Ikea shop and see something far better.
It certainly shouldnt be used as the basis of a hybrid restoration, (ie a Yorkshire Halifax) as so much new material would be required and cause most of the original material to be modified to make it re-useable.
I personally think the best place for it is where it is “in the battle field” where it fell, but under cover. Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen and it will continue to be at risk of deterioration from the elements and theft by scrap dealers or souvenir hunters, or possibly at worst, Furniture handymen?
Regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonKen,
I got your email, its @66 A5?/A6? pages with @5 fold out drawings and will take me a few days before I can run it through the scanner to create a PDF.
Mine is definately a Gipsy Six series II, I have three Gipsy Six “series I” and was originally going to say the series II is for some reason a lot skinner, but its seems one of the three”series I” has the full set of 28 AS Amendment Sheets near doubling its thickness compared to the other two “series I” and the series II.
The “series I” are not actually marked as that but simply titled “Care and Maintenance of the 200 H.P. D.H. Gipsy Six Aero Engine”, where as the series II is fully titled as “Care and Maintenance of the D.H. Gipsy Six series II Aero Engine”.
Apparantly the primary difference is the series II uses Gipsy Major Cylinders?.
The “Series I” is 9186 cc, compression ratio of 5.25:1, 185hp at 2100 rpm & 200hp at 2350 rpm, with a bore of 118mm and stroke of 140mm.
The Series II is ???? cc, compression ratio of 6:1, 185hp at 2100 rpm & 205hp at 2400 rpm, with a bore of 118mm and stroke of 140mm
I guess with the same bore and stroke but higher compression the series II pistons and heads must be significantly different too?
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonLooks a bit like a DC-3 engine (Twin Wasp) mount to me.
Anon.
ditto
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonKen,
I have an original Gipsy Six series II manual, (along with the standard Gipsy Six, Gipsy Queen II and Queen III manuals and many others), I can probably arrange a copy or scan into a PDF if you cant find one closer to home.
Regards
Mark Pilkington (Aust)
mark_pilkingtonToo English…
I think I’d have thought about that before I’d commissioned a full size Lancaster to by built. It just sounds like an excuse to me.
Not either, but the “English” story part of it wasn’t something that they just discovered
I’m sure they had researched that part of the story fairly early on smiles, but this project has been in the planning for years and delaying it due to the economic cycle in the UK is quite understandable.
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonremains “in development,” but does not have a date to begin shooting. Mr Jackson denies saying that the Dambusters story was “too English” in his Hollywood Reporter interview. Instead he claims to have described it as “very English.”
“Very English” = narrow interest story? in terms of world wide audience?
GFC = tight economy in the UK,
ie less disposable pounds to spend at the movies, so a delay in filming and releasing it, seems a logical business decision,
no great surprise? no great controversy?
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonGot it – Get NX611 airworthy then exchange PA474 for the Chinese Stirling. We will still have an airworthy Lanc in the UK so no one will be the least bit worried.
Sounds like this trading idea is catching on but will the Stirling be airworthy or just a heap of bits to form the basis of a project.Remember you saw it here first!
No – you have it all wrong, the chinese Stirling swap has fallen through due to the collapse in the Euro exchange rate.
Janey instead is to be restored to airworthy condition by the BBMF and used to replace PA474, which itself is being swapped to the Indian Air Force along with a hurricane mark II , for a restored airworthy hurricane mark I, and IAF’s B-24, which will then be put back into the air at the Indian’s cost and flown by the BBMF in RAF Colours!
smiles
Mark Pilkington
(note 1: all in jest and no disrespect intended to the BBMF or Panton Brothers, and their wonderful efforts)
(note 2: Aeroplane Monthly – please independantly check your sources before quoting this scoop – smiles)
mark_pilkingtonDavid,
I can understand your disappointment, having been involved in the acquisition of the rear fuselage for Aeroventure, not to have that collection secure the rest of the Lancaster parts.
My comments about various interested parties didnt relate only to the KP advertised sale in 2004, as I understand there had been various approaches to Imperial over the years, ( I had been in contact with them myself) and the Lincoln had apparantly been offered to a UK museum long before Imperial acquired it, and obviously Aeroventure had been able to purchase the rear fuselage before Imperial’s acquisition of the remainder.
I am also aware of an apparant US offer for the Lincoln, with consideration of presenting it as a Lancaster?, and seperately a UK buyer interested in using the Lincoln as the basis of a Lancaster mark II restoration?, although I cannot confirm how serious a consideration those projects or offers were?
I also cant comment on the advice or information provided to other bidders by the seller, the “rumours” of an Australian sale were certainly appearing here on KP in December 2004 despite our own efforts to keep it quiet at that time, but equally the “market” was well informed of our activities and intentions when we did go public, and there was a clear period in the first half of 2006 when our purchase option has expired and other bidders apparantly could have acquired the aircraft had they met the sellers price?
The Australian purchase had been under negotiation since late 2004 and via agreement of a generous installment plan but for a very significant price, all of that became publicly known here on KP in September 2005 when we publicly announced our fund raising efforts, and also freely stated on an MSN group and museum page.
While the price we had agreed on was very significant, it was in fact considered reasonable given the rarity of the airframes, and all of the parts were in one location, as against trying to build up either outcome from acquiring bits and pieces from many different locations, as per the Australian B-24 experience.
The original plan was to see the Lancaster fuselage sections donated to the RAAF Museum, with the Lincoln to go to the Moorabbin collection, although neither collection was directly involved in the acquisition.
Much of the 10 month delay was associated with establishing a formal fund raising charity, we had received offer of a substantial donation in late 2004 towards the first installment and by September 2005 had in fact raised the first installment as per our agreement with the seller, however the fund raising beyond that level did not materialise, and the board was concerned about proceeding with the first installment without confidence the remaining funds could be raised, that lead to various re-negotiations with the seller across late 2005 to early 2006 as we increased our publicity for funds, however the rate of fundraising gave no confidence the subsequent payments could be made, and the seller was advised of that situation.
Similarly here on KP it was publicly stated in February 2006 that our fund raising had been unsuccessful and our option to purchase had expired, that our project was unlikely to proceed and that other bids were being sought by the owner.
By June 2006 we had returned the donations we had received and were announcing on the msn group and the museum page that our project had formally closed.
In July / August I was advised by the seller that they were dropping the price significantly and that we were welcome to make a futher offer, but for cash payment outright, obviously we had only just returned all of our cash and from the earlier experience decided even the lower amount was beyond our fund raising confidence, and therefore the fund raising charity formed for that purpose could not proceed any further.
However some private negotiations and an emergence of silent partner resulted in the purchase of the Lincoln and Lancaster parts outside the charitable association, and that situation was again made public on KP in November 2006.
As part of those private negotiations, the silent partner retained the Lancaster fuselage sections for eventual display in his own collection, while the Lincoln was still to be donated to the Moorabbin Collection, where it is stored today, with ongoing parts being sought.
The Lancaster parts are in storage and may not see the light of day for some time, while I am not permitted to divulge the silent partners identity (as requested by him) I am confident the parts will be looked after very well, and I was personally involved in assisting him in acquiring many other Lancaster cockpit/radio/bomb aimers equipment to fit it out with.
As you say the rear two parts of KB976 may never re-unite, and they will not re-unite with the rest of the aircraft either, but as I said before, all the parts of KB976 and KB994 will live on in some form of meaningful preservation, and given the rarity of Lancasters, that in itself is a good thing.
Regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonThe rear fuselage of KB976 was purchased by Aeroventure because it was in Yorkshire in late 1945 and is wholly appropriate as a memorial to the guys that flew the type. That the next section forward was exported is a matter of regret.
David,
Aeroventure is obviously very attached to their rear fuselage section of KB976 (and who wouldnt value an original section of Lancaster), and my comments about them “re-uniting” was a throw away line as I am unaware of any intention to pursue that outcome?, ( in anycase there is another rear fuselage section now available to the KB994/976 fuselage project should the owner be interested in acquiring it).
It is dis-appointing the two parts are seperated, but at least they both survive as they obviously came close to demise at various times.
Even as I was negotiating the acquisition of the Lincoln, KB976’s centre-rear fuselage was at serious risk of being acquired by a pub simply to cut the roundel out to mount on a wall??
The KB994/KB976 Lancaster fuselage would have made an excellent display in a UK museum, as would the Lincoln RF342, and although there were various interested parties over the years, none were successful in their efforts, despite the parts being advertised a number of times prior to my own acquisition of the parts.
Both the Lancaster and Lincoln are too rare breeds to allow such parts to be left unwanted, and perhaps the one pleasing thing arising from the sad KB976/KB994/RF342 saga is that all the parts still survive despite the various directions and distances they have since travelled?
Regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonPA474
PA474
PA474It’s only a model…
SShhhh !:diablo:
I read on an old KP thread relating to KB976 that PA474 is fitted with Avro York wing outers?? if this is true does someone know the background? and of course that would make it Yorkaster?
smiles
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkingtonI am sure that Mark P will be able to give you chapter and verse on this project.
http://www.airtalk.org/avro-lincoln-to-australia-vt35824.html
Aircraft was CF-AMD, CF-TQC, G-BCOH and was damaged in the hangar collapse on 12/8/87.
I cant add much to that already explained above by Mark V and David Burke.
Although I have never seen any photos of KB976 in the collapsed hangar the damage was obvious to the rear fuselage now at Aeroventure and the centre-rear fuselage now down under. I have seen photos of KB976’s wing centre-section undergoing significant rebuild but I’m unsure if that was due to the Hangar collapse or simply re-sparing etc for airworthiness?
I also understood there was damage to the back of the KB976 cockpit section but I havent seen any evidence of that?
Subsequent to the Hangar collapse Charles Church acquired the dis-assembled Lincoln RF342 from Doug Arnold and imported the stripped Lancaster fuselage of KB994 from Canada, to support the rebuild of KB976.
Its unclear when the Lincoln lost its engines and undercarriage, and I suspect this occured in Doug Arnolds ownership prior to the hangar collapse on KB976?, it had originally been acquired to support the restoration of G-LANC, KB889, now at Duxford in the IWM.
After the death of Charles Church the best of the Lancaster parts were acquired by Kermit Weeks, substituting the undamaged centre-rear fuselage and rear fuselage sections of KB994 for the damaged sections of KB976, so the Weeks aircraft is still substantially KB976.
The Lincoln and remaining fuselage parts of KB994 and the damaged parts of KB976 passed to Aces High and parts began to disperse. The Lincoln’s cockpit, which is actually a Lancaster cockpit from TW911, was sold off, and now resides in the USA in Paul Allen’s collection, the rear fuselage of KB976 was acquired by Aeroventure, and the rest of the Lincoln and Lancaster parts were acquired by the Imperial Aviation Group at Sandtoft for an intended restoration, apparantly to airworthy condition as a registration was reserved?
By that time the parts consisted of:
Lancaster
KB994 stripped Cockpit without nose or canopy
KB994 Centre Section with spars cut flush with fuselage
KB976 Centre-rear Fuselage
RF342 Lincoln
Effectively everything less cockpit/nose, engines and main undercarriage.
Those Lincoln and Lancaster parts were later acquired by me and shipped to Australia, the Lincoln is in storage with the Australian National Aviation Museum as a long term restoration project, while the KB994 and KB976 Lancaster sections are stored and in a private collection for eventual restoration as a fuselage display.
While KB994 was an ops veteran with 6 missions to her credit, and therefore worthy of preservation in her own right, the fuselage was unlikely to ever form the basis of a complete aircraft rebuild and its donation of sections to Kermit Weeks project has ensured KB976 will rise from the ashes in some form, even if only as a complete static one day?
The hybrid KB994/KB976 fuselage sections will still one day form a fuselage display, unfortunately incomplete due to the rear fuselage residing in Aeroventure, but perhaps somehow the sections may re-unite in the future?
We are lucky that the Hangar collapse on KB976 occured late enough for the project to be considered worth keeping, but early enough that sections from KB994 were still available to effect a swap. Ten years earlier and KB976 may well have been scrapped, ten years later and KB994 may not have been available to provide replacement fuselage sections. While KB976 has had a sad and sorry life so far, at least it is safe and sound in the Weeks collection.
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkington.
Is the Drover sold, or being offered for sale? I may have an interested party?
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkington.
Interestingly this british Advertisement in Flight constantly refers to it being a gIpsy and that it will be called the “Wright Gipsy”.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929%20-%200061.html
regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkington.
These US built Gipsy engines come up occasionally on the barnstormers site, http://barnstormers.com/cat.php, you can place wanted ads in the “piston engine” “Wright” section.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1929/1929%20-%200061.html
The earlier ADC Cirrus engine was also built for the Moth in the US as the ACE Cirrus.
These also occasionally surface on barnstormers.
Regards
Mark Pilkington
mark_pilkington.
some futher photos.
Details of extended opening hours for the Victorian History Week 2009 are provided here : http://www.aarg.com.au/air-race.htm
“History Week 2009”
(Commencing Sunday 25th October to 1st November at Australian National Aviation Museum Moorabbin Airport.)
The Museum is proud to participate in the Royal Historical Society’s History Week celebrations and opens History Week at the museum with its Sunday celebrations of the 75th anniversary of the 1934 Centenary Air Race.
The Reinactment Flight DC-3, dressed in “Uiver” markings, will be in static display for the public from 4pm Saturday afternoon 24th of October through to 3pm Sunday afternoon 25th of October when it returns to its home base at Melbourne Airport .
Come and commemorate the 75th anniversary of the greatest air race event the world has seen, the 1934 MacRobertson “Centenary Air Race” held to celebrate the then centenary of Victoria and Melbourne through a pioneering air race from England to Australia – see displays and artifacts from the race. See the museum’s rare Douglas DC-2 presented as the famous KLM airliner “Uiver” that came second overall in the race, and first on handicap, along with the wider story of Australian Flight with rare engines and aircraft dating from 1910 through to the moden jet age.
Note: The Museum is operating special extended opening hours for History Week consisting of:
Monday – Friday 12 midday to 4pm
Saturday – Sunday – 10am to 5pm
regards
Mark Pilkington
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