kursedtigresses! :rolleyes:
kursedKursed, please do not “quote” me when I did not say exactly those things. Please edit your posts to reflect that or I will have to ask the mods to delete those posts of yours.
I am sorry, where did I quote you saying what you did not say? Just point out the statement and I’ll edit it.
kursedKursed, please do not “quote” me when I did not say exactly those things. Please edit your posts to reflect that or I will have to ask the mods to delete those posts of yours.
I am sorry, where did I quote you saying what you did not say? Just point out the statement and I’ll edit it.
kursedIf true, that sure didn’t hit the media here. I guess that underlines the points of both you and me.
Actually it did.
Pakistani riots about more than cartoons
By David Montero, Correspondent of The Christian Science MonitorFri Feb 17, 3:00 AM ET
As elsewhere in the Muslim world, Pakistan has seen an upswing in violence following the publication in Danish and other newspapers of caricatures of the prophet Muhammad.
Local TV has been awash with images of young men rampaging through the streets, hurling stones, and carrying sticks. Some youths simply seemed swept up in organic chaos, smiling and waving before cameras. Others destroyed hundreds of cars and trashed banks and restaurants like Pizza Hut and KFC in Lahore. A bank guard opened fire, killing two young men, and a third bystander was killed during clashes between students and police. In Peshawar, an 8-year-old boy was killed after being accidentally shot by a protester firing into a crowd. One man was killed by downed power lines.
Over the past week, Islam and religious fervor have been fingered as the source of the spreading violence. But to some analysts, the erratic nature of the demonstrations points to different root causes.
The flash conflagrations, they argue, highlight a profound discontent in ****-stan over economic and social inequality that has deepened over the past five years, sparking alienation and resentment.While the attacks on Western restaurants, cars, and banks have been read as an attack on the West, those targets are potent symbols simply of privilege and status that is beyond the reach of much of Pakistan’s population.
“In Western society, only the common man eats at KFC. But in Pakistan, these are eateries of the most privileged,” says Rasul Bakhsh Rai, a professor at the Lahore University of Management Sciences.
Muhammed Sarfarz Naimi, a religious party leader, began Valentine’s Day shouting down the Danish cartoons as blasphemous. By the afternoon, however, his faith compelled him to shout different protests, as throngs of young people in Lahore destroyed private businesses and government buildings, part of a swell of some 15,000 protestors who rampaged through the cultural capital in some of the worst violence the city has seen in recent years.
For Dr. Naimi, condemning the desecration of the prophet Muhammad and the desecration of life and livelihood are both parts of his calling.
“We demand that the government of Denmark apologize. Until they apologize, the protests will continue,” he said by telephone, but added about the violent protesters, “On that day we stopped them. We shouted, ‘Don’t destroy others’ livelihood, don’t destroy others’ wealth, others’ shops.’ This is prohibited by Islam.”
Naimi is one of several religious leaders playing a dual role these past few days, condemning in equal measure the offensive depictions of the prophet and the wanton violence perpetrated in several Pakistani cities.
“Violence is antireligion. To be harmful in this respect is against religion,” says Syed Munawar Hasan, secretary general of Jamaat Islami Pakistan in Lahore.
While some of the agitation was in fact directed toward the cartoons, religious leaders and secular analysts agree that the ensuing violence has little to do with religious offenses committed far away, and more to do with grievances at home.
“There was no religious component to the violence,” says Kamila Hyat, joint director of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, based in Lahore. “All the violence was influenced by small groups of boys who were not moved by the blasphemy issue.”
Others express doubt that those participating in the destruction were even aware of the blasphemy issue. Instead, they say, many participants took the opportunity to express an otherwise stifled but roiling sense of frustration.
“The whole thing was initiated because of the cartoons,” says Nauman Wazir, president of the Industrialists’ Association of Peshawar. “Then it was hijacked by some elements – schoolboys, people sitting idle – who also wanted to be a part of it. They have forgotten what the cause is.”
But youthful discontent alone cannot be blamed, religious leaders and other analysts are quick to point out. Both on and off the record, many say the involvement of state intelligence agencies in fomenting the violence cannot be discounted. The current administration, some argue, is trying to spread panic about religious extremists in a bid to hold on to power.
“Maybe [President Pervez] Musharraf is trying to create a situation where he says to [US President George] Bush, ‘Look, I’m sitting on dynamite with these mullahs and I’m the only one who can contain them,’ ” says Zarafullah Khan, director of the Center for Civic Education in Islamabad.
There is no proof of such activity, but observers say a weak police response is suggestive of state approval. The police in Lahore have been widely criticized for their failure to quell the violence, with many saying police did little to intervene. Mian Ameer Mahmood, the district nazim of Lahore, roughly equivalent to a mayor, denied the accusations: “I am on the record that police were not present at the time when people were burning buildings.”
Such a tepid response contrasts sharply with last month’s controversial marathon in Lahore, observers say, where thousands of police were deployed to prevent disruptions. It also contrasts with reports of armed troops stationed on rooftops and roadsides of Karachi Thursday, where 50,000 demonstrators rallied peacefully against the cartoons. Further protests are expected to mount in coming days, culminating in a nationwide protest on March 3 to coincide with the arrival of President Bush. Leaders of Jamaat Islami hope the demonstrations will be peaceful, although they cannot account for how some outside their party will act. “Ensure we cannot. We don’t have the police and army with us,” says Mr. Hasan. “Even then, our experience tells us that we’ve always been successful in organizing peacefully.”
kursedIf true, that sure didn’t hit the media here. I guess that underlines the points of both you and me.
Actually it did.
Pakistani riots about more than cartoons
By David Montero, Correspondent of The Christian Science MonitorFri Feb 17, 3:00 AM ET
As elsewhere in the Muslim world, Pakistan has seen an upswing in violence following the publication in Danish and other newspapers of caricatures of the prophet Muhammad.
Local TV has been awash with images of young men rampaging through the streets, hurling stones, and carrying sticks. Some youths simply seemed swept up in organic chaos, smiling and waving before cameras. Others destroyed hundreds of cars and trashed banks and restaurants like Pizza Hut and KFC in Lahore. A bank guard opened fire, killing two young men, and a third bystander was killed during clashes between students and police. In Peshawar, an 8-year-old boy was killed after being accidentally shot by a protester firing into a crowd. One man was killed by downed power lines.
Over the past week, Islam and religious fervor have been fingered as the source of the spreading violence. But to some analysts, the erratic nature of the demonstrations points to different root causes.
The flash conflagrations, they argue, highlight a profound discontent in ****-stan over economic and social inequality that has deepened over the past five years, sparking alienation and resentment.While the attacks on Western restaurants, cars, and banks have been read as an attack on the West, those targets are potent symbols simply of privilege and status that is beyond the reach of much of Pakistan’s population.
“In Western society, only the common man eats at KFC. But in Pakistan, these are eateries of the most privileged,” says Rasul Bakhsh Rai, a professor at the Lahore University of Management Sciences.
Muhammed Sarfarz Naimi, a religious party leader, began Valentine’s Day shouting down the Danish cartoons as blasphemous. By the afternoon, however, his faith compelled him to shout different protests, as throngs of young people in Lahore destroyed private businesses and government buildings, part of a swell of some 15,000 protestors who rampaged through the cultural capital in some of the worst violence the city has seen in recent years.
For Dr. Naimi, condemning the desecration of the prophet Muhammad and the desecration of life and livelihood are both parts of his calling.
“We demand that the government of Denmark apologize. Until they apologize, the protests will continue,” he said by telephone, but added about the violent protesters, “On that day we stopped them. We shouted, ‘Don’t destroy others’ livelihood, don’t destroy others’ wealth, others’ shops.’ This is prohibited by Islam.”
Naimi is one of several religious leaders playing a dual role these past few days, condemning in equal measure the offensive depictions of the prophet and the wanton violence perpetrated in several Pakistani cities.
“Violence is antireligion. To be harmful in this respect is against religion,” says Syed Munawar Hasan, secretary general of Jamaat Islami Pakistan in Lahore.
While some of the agitation was in fact directed toward the cartoons, religious leaders and secular analysts agree that the ensuing violence has little to do with religious offenses committed far away, and more to do with grievances at home.
“There was no religious component to the violence,” says Kamila Hyat, joint director of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, based in Lahore. “All the violence was influenced by small groups of boys who were not moved by the blasphemy issue.”
Others express doubt that those participating in the destruction were even aware of the blasphemy issue. Instead, they say, many participants took the opportunity to express an otherwise stifled but roiling sense of frustration.
“The whole thing was initiated because of the cartoons,” says Nauman Wazir, president of the Industrialists’ Association of Peshawar. “Then it was hijacked by some elements – schoolboys, people sitting idle – who also wanted to be a part of it. They have forgotten what the cause is.”
But youthful discontent alone cannot be blamed, religious leaders and other analysts are quick to point out. Both on and off the record, many say the involvement of state intelligence agencies in fomenting the violence cannot be discounted. The current administration, some argue, is trying to spread panic about religious extremists in a bid to hold on to power.
“Maybe [President Pervez] Musharraf is trying to create a situation where he says to [US President George] Bush, ‘Look, I’m sitting on dynamite with these mullahs and I’m the only one who can contain them,’ ” says Zarafullah Khan, director of the Center for Civic Education in Islamabad.
There is no proof of such activity, but observers say a weak police response is suggestive of state approval. The police in Lahore have been widely criticized for their failure to quell the violence, with many saying police did little to intervene. Mian Ameer Mahmood, the district nazim of Lahore, roughly equivalent to a mayor, denied the accusations: “I am on the record that police were not present at the time when people were burning buildings.”
Such a tepid response contrasts sharply with last month’s controversial marathon in Lahore, observers say, where thousands of police were deployed to prevent disruptions. It also contrasts with reports of armed troops stationed on rooftops and roadsides of Karachi Thursday, where 50,000 demonstrators rallied peacefully against the cartoons. Further protests are expected to mount in coming days, culminating in a nationwide protest on March 3 to coincide with the arrival of President Bush. Leaders of Jamaat Islami hope the demonstrations will be peaceful, although they cannot account for how some outside their party will act. “Ensure we cannot. We don’t have the police and army with us,” says Mr. Hasan. “Even then, our experience tells us that we’ve always been successful in organizing peacefully.”
kursedPeace Be Upon Him.
kursedPeace Be Upon Him.
kursedÍf muslims wants us to respect their religion as holy matter, ..Aka blaiming the whole nation and its leadership for the ill deed, burning down embazyes and threathening to kill people….like someone said, douple standards…Muslims should understand us if they require us to understand them.
And we are back to square one. Exactly how many times do you need to be reminded that embassies were only torched in Damascus while protests and mind you peaceful protests were taken out right throughout the world; from Cairo to Sydney? But as it’s the case with most of your lot you chose to take a stereotypical view of Muslims. Yes there have been riots and yes there have been burning of effigies but mind you local politics of those nations have played a bigger role in such acts then just the cartoons depicting the holy Prophet (PBUH). It always helps if you care to read news a little in detail.
The protests in Pakistan for example didn’t turn violent because people were specifically angry about the cartoons but due to the recent inflation in prices of items of daily use. Public anger found its way out on the streets on the name of this act, but that doesn’t mean it was directed by this act alone.
As for your question whether Muslims should print cartoons of Joseph, Moses and Christ to take a jab at the right to freedom of expression of the European Nations then mind you sir, Muslims consider them Prophets as well and thus they are held in equally high religious esteem. Just as Muslims do not portray Muhammad (PBUH) in pictures they can’t draw pictures of Moses, Joseph and Christ as well.
And no I will not be condoning the acts of those who have chosen the path of violence to get their message across in this fiasco. Muslims want to prove the Prophet (PBUH) was a man of peace and to get their point across in a violent manner would mean nothing else but hypocrisy. But repeating what I just said before, majority of Muslims has not gone down the path of violence to get their message heard. To choose to ignore them and take a xenophobic view of the situation is your choice altogether it’s not the fault of Muslims.
Agree. In my opinion, the freedom of expression comes with responsibility. However, this responsibility should in most cases be individual and not constrained by stringent laws
That is exactly what is required in this situation, a sense of responsibility on both sides. Muslims as well as the Europeans need to find a common ground on this matter and fast. That’s if they (West & Muslims) don’t want to feed the ranks of the Islamic extremists by their own folly.
So why do so many call us infidels and why is it that their so called anger is only directed at Christians and Jews but never at Hindus or other religions which exist around the world. After all, are they not infidels as well?
Sir, are you considering Zarqawi, Bin Laden and co, leaders of Muslims by any chance? Judaism and Christianity are closer to Islam than any other religion, and people belonging to these two faiths are considered as followers of the fellow books i.e. the Torah and the Bible. Again if you choose to sideline the view of the majority of the Muslims and cherry pick the views of the extremists then nobody is going to help you with it.
n order for the Muslim world to gain our trust and our acceptance, mainly after 9/11, they’re going to have to start behaving differently!
Mind telling me exactly what do you want the majority of the Muslims to do differently?
No government should be held accountable of its newspapers and thats my stand, and the thing that i will defend. As we have freedom of speach that means we have also a freedom of press and therefore governments cannot controll (and should not controll) what the press does, Do you as representative of muslims understand this?
Agreed, and the reason is totally justified. Press in the west is not controlled by their respective governments in any way hence they can’t be blamed for what their press publishes. The demand for apology by the government of Denmark is totally uncalled for and unjustified.
Man do you know the punishment for insulting the Prophet (PBUH) either verbally or physically is death without regard if its commited by a Non muslim or even by a muslim. So you can exactly know what i mean by non physical response.
That’s where you are terribly wrong my friend. The punishment of death for the act of blasphemy is a political punishment administered in various Muslim nations. It has no religious standing. If you can bring me one Quranic Ayah or a single hadith advocating your point of view I’ll agree to it. While keeping in mind the conduct of the Prophet(PBUH) himself when confronted by the people of Taif. Therefore according to my knowledge about Islam, to say that this punishment has any religious standing, is wrong.
kursedÍf muslims wants us to respect their religion as holy matter, ..Aka blaiming the whole nation and its leadership for the ill deed, burning down embazyes and threathening to kill people….like someone said, douple standards…Muslims should understand us if they require us to understand them.
And we are back to square one. Exactly how many times do you need to be reminded that embassies were only torched in Damascus while protests and mind you peaceful protests were taken out right throughout the world; from Cairo to Sydney? But as it’s the case with most of your lot you chose to take a stereotypical view of Muslims. Yes there have been riots and yes there have been burning of effigies but mind you local politics of those nations have played a bigger role in such acts then just the cartoons depicting the holy Prophet (PBUH). It always helps if you care to read news a little in detail.
The protests in Pakistan for example didn’t turn violent because people were specifically angry about the cartoons but due to the recent inflation in prices of items of daily use. Public anger found its way out on the streets on the name of this act, but that doesn’t mean it was directed by this act alone.
As for your question whether Muslims should print cartoons of Joseph, Moses and Christ to take a jab at the right to freedom of expression of the European Nations then mind you sir, Muslims consider them Prophets as well and thus they are held in equally high religious esteem. Just as Muslims do not portray Muhammad (PBUH) in pictures they can’t draw pictures of Moses, Joseph and Christ as well.
And no I will not be condoning the acts of those who have chosen the path of violence to get their message across in this fiasco. Muslims want to prove the Prophet (PBUH) was a man of peace and to get their point across in a violent manner would mean nothing else but hypocrisy. But repeating what I just said before, majority of Muslims has not gone down the path of violence to get their message heard. To choose to ignore them and take a xenophobic view of the situation is your choice altogether it’s not the fault of Muslims.
Agree. In my opinion, the freedom of expression comes with responsibility. However, this responsibility should in most cases be individual and not constrained by stringent laws
That is exactly what is required in this situation, a sense of responsibility on both sides. Muslims as well as the Europeans need to find a common ground on this matter and fast. That’s if they (West & Muslims) don’t want to feed the ranks of the Islamic extremists by their own folly.
So why do so many call us infidels and why is it that their so called anger is only directed at Christians and Jews but never at Hindus or other religions which exist around the world. After all, are they not infidels as well?
Sir, are you considering Zarqawi, Bin Laden and co, leaders of Muslims by any chance? Judaism and Christianity are closer to Islam than any other religion, and people belonging to these two faiths are considered as followers of the fellow books i.e. the Torah and the Bible. Again if you choose to sideline the view of the majority of the Muslims and cherry pick the views of the extremists then nobody is going to help you with it.
n order for the Muslim world to gain our trust and our acceptance, mainly after 9/11, they’re going to have to start behaving differently!
Mind telling me exactly what do you want the majority of the Muslims to do differently?
No government should be held accountable of its newspapers and thats my stand, and the thing that i will defend. As we have freedom of speach that means we have also a freedom of press and therefore governments cannot controll (and should not controll) what the press does, Do you as representative of muslims understand this?
Agreed, and the reason is totally justified. Press in the west is not controlled by their respective governments in any way hence they can’t be blamed for what their press publishes. The demand for apology by the government of Denmark is totally uncalled for and unjustified.
Man do you know the punishment for insulting the Prophet (PBUH) either verbally or physically is death without regard if its commited by a Non muslim or even by a muslim. So you can exactly know what i mean by non physical response.
That’s where you are terribly wrong my friend. The punishment of death for the act of blasphemy is a political punishment administered in various Muslim nations. It has no religious standing. If you can bring me one Quranic Ayah or a single hadith advocating your point of view I’ll agree to it. While keeping in mind the conduct of the Prophet(PBUH) himself when confronted by the people of Taif. Therefore according to my knowledge about Islam, to say that this punishment has any religious standing, is wrong.
kursedBleargh! I couldnt see a damn thing 🙂
kursedBleargh! I couldnt see a damn thing 🙂
kursedErr Musahi that wasn’t sarcasm..Nearly all allied Muslim states have warned GB about Hizb ur Tahrir. And yet they are allowed to operate with full impunity out of Britian. Your government needs to pull a plug on them and fast.
kursedErr Musahi that wasn’t sarcasm..Nearly all allied Muslim states have warned GB about Hizb ur Tahrir. And yet they are allowed to operate with full impunity out of Britian. Your government needs to pull a plug on them and fast.
kursedMeans of violence to defend oneself mind you. How exactly does that make Islam a religion of war ???
kursedMeans of violence to defend oneself mind you. How exactly does that make Islam a religion of war ???
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