Nice thread scoots, don’t have nightmares.

Israel should have joined the JSF earlier if it expected to get LRIP aircraft at the same price as partner nations are getting ($58.7 million in FY 2008 dollars each flyaway for the F-35A). Basically by helping to pay for developement, partner nations have in effect put up a ‘down payment’ on early production slots thus they are (I believe) getting the full rate production price for LRIP aircraft.

Note at an average inflation rate or 3% $58.7 million becomes $72.2 million in 2014…coincidentally right in the range of the expected 2014 cost (2.5% being ~$69.8 million & 3.5% being ~$74.7 million). 😉

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Get a grip with reality.
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=48072

Nice try. Appearantly you have no clue as to the cost of the Typhoon, or Rafale or Super Hornet…&/or why Israel is having to pay a higher price for the F-35.

And again, Israel’s cost for the F-35 does not represent its cost to partner nations or to an nation willing to wait for full rate production…

Personally I think Israel should ‘bite the bullet’ & get its initial oder of 25 (knowing full well that it is paying a higher price for them) & wait for lower full rate production prices for its remaining 50. And if Israel comits to the additional 50 (rather than as just an option to buy more) it is more likely to get a better price for its initial 25.

Irrelevant.

So Belgium being interrested in the F-35 again is irrelavent…

American fighters should be banned as an option for European air forces, except cases where European don’t have an equivalent (VTOL F-35 comes into my mind)

Sounds like somebody is SO worried that the F-35 is going to DOMINATE the western fighter market for the next 1/4 century that they need to come up with some artificial way removing it as a possibility so other MORE EXPENSIVE yet LESS CAPABLE fighters stand a chance. :p

And why did they reduce the numbers ????

Can’t you read?

due to the end of the cold war

The size of the USAF was cut DRASTICALLY (almost in half in terms of combat air wings). Thus the then SMALLER USAF did not require 750 F-22.

In real life the F-22 gets more expensive, the Government then has to reduce the number of F-22’s it can afford. but you cry “its because they reduced the number being bought that caused costs to escalate!!!.”

PRODUCTION REDUCTIONS, as well as FUNDING CUTS (during developement), & DELAYS (due in no small part to said funding cuts) resulted in raising cost. Which then led to FURTHER production reductions, raising the per unit cost higher still. It is a “snowball effect” lower producustion increases the per unit cost…

What is the purpose of the Joint Estimating Team, why was it created..?

To review the F-22 program cost & schedule. Note that JET (Joint Estimating Team) started in 1996…and the result of which was to CUT PRODUCTION from 442 to 339 which led to increased per unit costs.

Notice anything about the price???? and the numbers???

Again, the cut from 750 to 648 & then again to 442 was not due to raising cost but due to a reduction in force levels.

Belgium want the F-35 :rolleyes:, that gotta be a joke right. i find this article verry hard to believe.

Belgium did plan to enter the JSF project in december 1999, but after protest from the pacifist party “GROEN!” they were forced to cancel that plan.
and i do believe there is an old saying:

“those who not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it”

So ‘Belgium’ has come to its senses & is interrested in the F-35 again.

besides, Belgium doesnt need that overpriced, underpowered stealth bombtruck the US calls a fighter.

The F-35 is NOT overpriced. [it is less expesive than a Typhoon, or Rafale or Super Hornet]
The F-35 is NOT underpowerd. [ONLY ~2400 lbs heavier than the Typhoon but slightly MORE thrust]
The F-35 (when it enters service) will be the 2nd best FIGHTER in the world. [2nd only to the F-22]

the aircraft is to expensive, carries a limited internal payload and propably never comply to Belgian Standards.

Again, LESS expensive than the Typhoon, or Rafale or Super Hornet.

At lease it HAS an internal payload…if you ever need more payload than it carries internally, it CAN carry more payload externally.

What Belgian Standards is the F-35 not able to comply with?

besides, why by stealth, when you put external loads on it, it isnt stealth anymore, money down the drain.

Because MOST of the time you don’t need the external payload. And as much as some try to deny it, stealth IS a game-changer. Besides even WITH an external payload the F-35 is stealthier than any 4th generation fighter with the same payload (ESPECIALLY given that similar size 4th generation fighters REQUIRE 2-3 external fuel tanks to match the INTERNAL fuel capacity of the F-35).

only last week there was a report that of all NATO members, Belgium was only second next to slovenia on the list of countries that spend the LEAST on new defence equipment.

All the more reason for Belgium to get the “most gang for the buck”.

Belgium will propably keep flying the Viper until the end of its lifespan, propably to about 2020-2025.

Where do you get that the Belgian F-16s will keep flying until 2020-2025? And note that what ever dat it is, they have to be REPLACED by something BY then – you don’t START teplacing fighters AFTER they are gone.

also the Belgian Defence/Air Component prefers to use european equipment (NH-90, A-400M, Pandur,…) so if they are looking at an F-16 replacement, it will most likely be the Eurofighter Typhoon (tranche 3) or the Gripen-NG (witch will most likely be offered as Gripen-BE to Belgium)

Who knows Belgium will ultimately choose. But at this point, as much as you may not like it, the F-35 is a POSSIBILITY.

IIRC LM was promising 277 aircraft for the congressional cap price.. its now only 183…

The 183 has zilch zero nada to do with price cap or requirements or anything other than how many the total came to when the Bush administration negotiated for 60 through the end of its administration – passing the buck to the next administration for more so that it would not have to deal with it.

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[B][I]The F-22 has only one customer and that customer cut the order from 381 to 183. Which, is hardly the fault of Lockheed Martin. Also, the F-35 has a dozen customers with many others showing strong interest!

The ‘order’ was never for 381. That is how many the USAF determined (through a VERY extensive study) was the minimum it needed in order to equip each of its 10 AEFs with ONE squardon & have enough for training, maintenance & attrition reserves.

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LOL

Planned procurement /Year
750 original
648 1990
442 1994
339 1997 still exceeded cap by $13B
277 2003
183 2006

I’ll give you a hint, these reductions were not because the price was falling…
Why did the program need a cost cap? because the alarms were sounding at the fantastic cost escalations!,

If LM had delivered the F-22 at the original price within the cost cap the USAF could have purchased 1500 x F-22’s…

So in the creditability stakes forgive me if I doubt LM costing predictions.

cheers

Are you really THAT intellectually dishonset, or just plain ignorant?

The cuts from 750 to 648 to 442 were due to reduced force levels (due to the end of the cold war) NOT price.

And with all the spending cuts & delays (as well as the reduce procurement numbers) BY THE US GOVERNEMENT it would be impossible for LM to deliver the F-22 at the same price as was projected in 1994 (or earlier).

you don’t know what access to information he has, you are making assumptions. They may or may not be accurate, the bottom line is you don’t know. Basing your opinion on an unknown as big as that is foolish.

What we DO know is that people you HAVE had access are convinced as to the capability of the F-35.

No airforce other than the US has actually commited to buy the aircraft, so to state “Air Forces which chose the plane” could be construed as stretching the truth in some lights. It might, again i say might, turn out that the F35 doesn’t get purchased by anybody but the US, very unlikely but stranger things have happened at sea..then where are you left with your assertations re the aircraft?

No, saying that no Air Force other than the US has actually commited to buy the aircraft is stretching the truth. Several Air Forces are IN THE PROCESS OF commiting to buy the aircraft.

Don’t forget there are also people with vested interests in UNDERESTIMATING what stealth costs, and EXAGGERATING what its benefits are..

Those with vested interest are the Manufacturer, and the investor-purchasers…

Manufacturer because they want to sell their product, and the investor-purchaser because they have invested heavily in the program and don’t wish to avoid being seen as gullible.

No, said manufacturer has a vested interest is making sure it delivers what it has been tasked to deliver. Not only because if it doesn’t people will die BECAUSE of it but because they want their customers to come back to them again in the future.

Also note that not only is said manufacture making said claims but THE primary customer (the US DOD) as well…

So Mr Sweetman has much less of a reason to be biased than they do….

I don’t claim to know Mr. Sweetman’s reasons. I don’t even claim to know if Mr. Sweetman has an agenda or if someone else with an agenda is pulling his strings or if he truly has not taken the effort to properly inform himself.

What I DO know is that much of what Mr. Sweetman has written about in relation to the F-35 has been inaccurate, misleading or out right false.

According to the current plan only 1% of testing will be done before they start building production JSF’s.. now that’s confidence or idiocy …:eek:

Neither. It is what HAS to be done.

Potential Purchasers have been briefed on the capabilities of an untested aircraft without a firm price, (which they have invested heavily in) and they declared its the best.. Do you ever wonder about that??. or is it a faith thing.

Wrong. Partner nations have been given a firm price for the F-35A. It is $58.7 million fly-way in FY2008 dollars.

It is not like we have never built a 5th generation fighter before…

I believe the growing army of detractors, both civilian & military and politicians & civil servants of several governments tearing their hair out at massive cost escalations, delays & performance issues, with only an LM brochure to soothe their frayed nerves.

What growing army of detractors?
What cost escalations?
What delays?
What performance issues?

Just because the only thing YOU have seen of the F-35 is a LM brochure doesn’t mean that is all anybody else has seen. Funny how those who have seen more are convinced…

I choose A. But hey I’m an optimist- supplant moon with JSF:

We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

And the JSF is looking to become a great sucess just as the moon project was…

i’m not complaining about the cost

Yes you are. Go back & read your own posts…

assuming you have enough tanker resources available that aren’t tied up elsewhere

that said, most of what we transport via C-17 can also be transported via C-130

and C-130s have ‘unlimited range’ via AAR just like the C-17

perhaps we should just build a giant fleet of C-130s and just keep a small fleet of C-17s for the stuff that won’t fit on C-130s

why don’t we do that? because it’s silly, just like saying the C-17 can replace the C-5 is silly. They all have their place

Classic example of how people like you twist things around, pulling the argument into something else in order to avoid the ACTUAL statements of others.

it would really help your case if you could actual offer some explanation with your argument

simply saying ‘you’re wrong’ doesn’t help anyone

Even the US does not conduct high-intesity combat operations 24/365 in all weather conditions.

there message board are here for our education and edification and enlightenment

calling people ignorant without offering to help is just . . . ignorant

you say i don’t know AAR operations, ok fine, teach me

what should i know? what am i missing?

Like I said, we have been through this all before…

THIS is supposed to be a thread about the C-17.