pfcemYou cannot prove that something DID NOT happen… If you cannot prove it, you cannot know..
Public comments from pilots, groundcrew et cetera who where there as well as from the US & UK governments stating that the story is false makes it MUCH more likely that it did NOT happen than stories which when attempted to be varified turned into dead ends…
It looks to me that Rappies have got their a$$es creamed few times, quite unexpectedly..
More like some Typhoon cult follower couldn’t stand that their beloved Typhoon wasn’t the baddest plane on the block any more & made up a story about it besting the baddest plane on the block. Then some time AFTER said fantacy came out the F-22 & Typhoon actually DID meet & what came from that meeting is ‘IF IT COULD SEE THE F-22, the Typhoon has about as good a change vs the F-22 as the F-15 & F-16 have against the Typhoon’…
Whether it was 8:2 or 10:5 or 6:8 is unimportant, important is that they probably performed well below the expectations.
Yes the Typhoon DID perform well below the expectations. Typhoon pilots had become accustomed to handily besting all opposition & it was quite a rude awakening to be on the other end of such one-sided ‘confrontations’.
USAF now begs for 60 more of em, I am not surprised that everyone keeps quiet about it as much as it gets..
No, the USAF STILL wants/needs 381, the 60 more if just the latest ‘ploy’ if you will to keep the line open & get 20 a year until it DOES get the 381.
Well, you can order your own F-15 pilots to accept whatever ROE, claim whatever 248:0 nonsense of a score and tell them to simply STFU but RAF jocks are something entirely different, you cannot bend them over just as it fits you.
It is an RAF Typhoon pilot who sad ‘IF IT COULD SEE THE F-22, the Typhoon has about as good a change vs the F-22 as the F-15 & F-16 have against the Typhoon’…
I am sure about one thing: the more pilots from abroad will be fighting the F-22s on exercises, the thinner the xxxxx:0 ‘score’ will get. The 22 is a marvelous piece of hardware and arguably the best fighter on the planet but the hypes about its capabilities and almost epic advantages over the other designs have gotten beyond tiring and ridiculous. It’s slowly time to debunk the myths..
The Typhoon is a marvelous piece of hardware and arguably the best 4th generation fighter on the planet but the hypes about its capabilities and almost epic advantages over the other designs have gotten beyond tiring and ridiculous. It’s slowly time to debunk the myths…:)
pfcemAh! I see what your problem is…. It just not been confirmed to you ;-).
1. You’d need to talk off the record to someone who was there (when it didn’t happen..;)),
2. They would have to trust you not to bleat your source all over the net.
3. You’d have to eat humble pie.Frankly 1 and 2 should be a lot easier for you than 3.
That’s all there is to it.
Cheers
No, it has been confirmed to be a made up story. The F-22 & Typhoon were both there during the same week (& at some point likely both in the air at the same time) but DID NOT fly with or agaisnt each other.
pfcemOh, dear, for the last time, the RAAF had NOTHING to do with the selection of the F-35. It was a political decision and therefore it is false to claim that it was selected based accurately upon its merits for the RAAF’s needs. No matter how it may turn out, the F-35 was not the RAAF’s choice.
That’s all I’m trying to say here, not that anything is or is not superior to the F-35. I’m just attempting to dispel the myth that our Air Force chose the jet, that’s all.
And now back to the E/A-18G.
Who said that the RAAF chose the F-35? The RAAF has BACKED the decision to go with the F-35, but I don’t think ANYONE has said the RAAF chose the F-35. Do you SERIOUSLY believe that if Australia were to have a formal competition that the F-35 would not come out the winner?
pfcemWhy do people insist on fighting the last war?
That would be the DOD, not the USAF. The F-22 & the F-35 are ALL ABOUT fighting the next war rather than the last (or current) one.
USAF doesn’t need replacements for Nieuport 17s, they don’t need replacements for P-51s or F-86s or F-4s or F-16/18s.
Being is how the only plane in that list the USAF current has is the F-16…But contrary to ignorants’ beliefs, the F-16s DO need to be replaced & in order to be able to replace them BEFORE they are no longer combat worthy, we need to star ASAP.
They need a system that allows them to deploy to far away friendly bases (bases that are long distances from the AO) and immediately begin combat operations. A future adversary WILL NOT allow USAF 2-4 months to deploy and prep for combat as was done during DS/DS, OEF and OIF. Short range airplanes cannot deploy and immediately start combat without a huge logistics train. Getting the logistics train online takes time.
Like I said, the USAF needs a true 1200-1500 mile combat radius medium bomber AS WELL AS the F-22 & F-35.
USAF messed up badly by buying a short range airplane, blinded by the pilot mafia’s need to keep the bar stools in the O-club occupied.
The F-35 is NOT a short range airplane. It can carry what has become the typical payload light/medium fighters carry about as far ON INTERNAL FUEL as any “comparable” 4th generation light/medium fighters can WITH 2-3 external tanks.
pfcemThe US Defense Dept has ok advance funds for 4 more Rators already. So, would the 60 be on top of that or minus that??? Not that its big deal but I’ll 247 vs 243??? As every plane counts……..
The USAF wants another 60 Raptor deal to keep things going a while longer, in fact the USAF wants to keep procuring 20+ F-22 a year until it AT LEAST has the 381 it NEEDS. Congress has allocated funds for advanced procurement for 20 F-22 for FY2010 (which would, hopefully, be the 1st 20 of another 60 plane agreement) but the DOD has only allocated funds for 4 of the 20 F-22. Neeedless to say, the USAF AND Congress are not happy with the DOD…
pfcemWhat mistake? Not to vote for an unjust? It is the legal and moral obligation of the UN as well as the countries who voted for the partition (although against the will of the Palestinians) to get its resolution implemented i.e. to establish a sovereign Palestinian state alongside Israel. The root cause of the problem is not Israel per se (at least not now because Arabs as well as others have finally realized that Israel is a reality) but Israel’s resistance of not accepting the UN resolution on the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state. Even King Abdullah had made an offer to Israel that If they (Israel) go back to the pre 1967 position, KSA (and others) will recognize Israel. This shows a radical change in the Arab position on Israel yet it was not accepted by Israel. So putting all blame on Palestinians and their supporters is either ignorance or simple defiance.
What a bunch of propaganda BS. Israel is not resistance to a sovereign Palestinian state. Arabs (not Palestinians) are resistance to a sovereign Palestinian state that does not include Israel as part of said Palestinian state.
pfcemThere have not been any significant improvements in technology in RF low observables since the late 1970s. There have been minor improvements in material application, computing power, maintenance and accessibility, but nothing that improves the bottom line RCS.
You go right on believing such nonsense…
F-35A’s biggest shortfall is lack of range. USAF needs airplanes with a 1200-1500 mile combat radius.
WHY THE HELL DO PEOPLE INSIST ON FAULTING THINGS FOR NOT BEING WHAT THEY ARE & WERE NEVER INTENDED TO BE!
The F-35 is a replacement for the F-16, F/A-18, AV-8B & A-10 NOT a medium bomber for God’s sake.
Yes, the USAF “needs” a true 1200-1500 mile combat radius medium bomber (the A-12 would have been close at >900 miles) but the USAF, the USN & the USMC ALSO need to replace their F-16, F/A-18, AV-8B & A-10 with something that DOES NOT need to have 1000+ mile combat radius.
pfcemPersonally, I’m thinking that the F-35 might have been a complete waste of time, at least for the USAF. Would it be better to have a fleet of stealthy air dominance aircraft with SDBs and JDAMs for first day/high value/DEAD duties on the ground, and then non stealthy, cheaper legacy style aircraft for everything else?
In the case of airforces who want to field only one type of combat aircraft, then the F35 jack of all trades might be appropriate, but if you are in the market for a hi-lo capability spread then spending so much on the lightning 2 might be like using a Rolls Royce as a taxi; it’ll do the job well, but its too expensive.
Such backwards thinking would have had us only procuring a tolken force of F-14s, F-15s, F-16s & F/A-18s but still keeping the bulk of the USAF & USN with F-4 & A-7s.
The F-22 & F-35 are NOT built to fight TODAY’S threats but TOMORROW’S threats. The threats of today are MUCH more capable than the threats of 1980 & the threats of 2020 will be MUCH more capable than the threats of today.
And stop with the BS about the F-22 & F-35 being too expensive. In REAL apples-to-apples procurement cost comparison they are (or SHOULD be if we procure them in sufficient numbers) about ~1/3 more expensive than a new F-15 & F-16 built at the same time in the same numbers respectively but are MUCH more than 1/3 more capable. In a cost-effectiveness comparision, the F-22 & F-35 are the MUCH better choice. Don’t forget that the legacy force F-15s & F-16s are going to be with us for quite some time still but they WILL NOT last forever.
pfcemIt was the UK side that first leaked it, along with an ~80 mile detection quote.
🙂
Which prompted an almost unprecedented response from the USAF.
First all the planned sorties were canceled. ( this was reversed some time later when common sense prevailed.)
Second an official denial – something along the lines of “they were never in the air at the same time and the F-22 had wing tanks on and rcs enhancers on at the time it didn’t happen.;) really when did they start commentiong on operations like this??
Third a hats on talk regarding security was hastily arranged for RAF personel.Its been a really touchy subject since then, you can’t get much out of anyone currently in the RAF, USAF, Eurofighter or Warton.
No was NOT the UK side that first leaked it. “Someone” heard from “someone else” et cetera. When people tried to trace the “someones” it was found to be a made up story. The F-22 & Typhoon did not “play together” until IIRC more than a year after the ‘story’ came out.
IIRC they occurred in the High Rider deployments.
LOL
Err your placing faith in that one comment that made its way into the public?????, would that be an substantiated claim too??? lol.
No, but it is a public comment that has been verified as to the actual source of the comment & the “factual accuracy” of the comment.
The rough guide I have managed to gather is ther F-22 dominates in BVR (as you would expect) But It doesn’t have it all its own way 100%, but I can’t give any ratios or scores, WVR the Typhoon seems to have the edge, once again it doesn’t dominate the F-22 100%.
No, the F-22 dominates in BOTH BVR & WVR. Most of the time (it is dos not matter if it was an F-15, F-16, F/A-18, Typhoon or whatever) the 1st indication that you have that the F-22 is even around is when you are “killed” by one. And even when you get a visual on the F-22, targetting it is STILL VERY difficult.
pfcemCommanderJB,
Given how anti-semitic & anti-Israel the UN is & has always been I am sure you can find somewhere in the UN charter where is says it is OK (dare say encouraged) for anyone to attack Israel but illegal for Israel to retaliate. :p
And enough with the BS that the Iraq War was illegal. Iraq was in violation of over a dozen UN resolutions & while the UN itself did not have the spine to back up its resolutions with anything other still more empty resolutions, a world-wide coalition of 49 nations (8 of which contributed troops to the invasion force) did.
pfcemRemember the F-22 and the Typhoon have played together, but its all a bit hush hush.. (from around 2005 onwards)
Remember the unsubstantiated claims that the F-22 & Typhoon “played together” prior to 2008 turned out to be pure fiction. Flying in the same airspace during the same week & “playing together” are two different things. 😉
When they did finally “play together” the comments from at least one Typhoon pilot (which has made its way into the public) was “Well, if you can see the bloody thing you have a chance… not a great chance but about the same as an F-15 or F-16 has against us. The problem is the AAMRAM is up your a$$ long before you can possibly see it. Quite discouraging ‘do’ at Nellis, really.” Quite revealing considering how over confident Typhoon pilots are vs an F-15 or F-16.
When the F-22 beats an opponent 100’s to 0 its all over the press, with pictures a pilot comments, but the Typhoon ones were hushed up???.
What Typhoon ones?
Now you could say it never happened and hasn’t ever happened… but wouldn’t you find that a little odd in itself??
It did happen (in 2008). It is the Typhoon pilots who wish for the results to remain hush-hush…
I’m sure it will be OK for the F-22 with a bit of RoE tweaking.
:rolleyes:
pfcemAs every australian with an bit of defence understanding knows, F-35 is wrong for us. we could easily have got the F-22A- threaten to withdrw from the ‘ghan, if we don’t get it, or deploy an extra battalion to the ghan if we did. everyone knows one aussie battalion is worth 2 others, and america would have gladly gave us F-22A.
Utter nonsense. The US DOD won’t even let the USAF have the F-22s it needs much less anyone else. And Australia has MUCH more to lose from a degraded relationship with the US than the US does.
The F-35 is not wrong for Australia, it is just about the best Australia could REALISTICALLY hope for. Substitue some varient of the F-15E or dare say the Su-34 [the only two aircraft with even remotely close range/payload to the F-111] for the totally idiotic F/A-18F “stop-gap” nonsense for your dedicated “heavy strike” squadron & the F-35 is the best that can be had for most everything else except for basically ‘civil air patrol’ CAS vs adversaries with NO air defenses.
and instead of rebarrelling legacy hornets, take the 50 best F-111’s from AMARC (and some EF-111’s) and rebarrel them. who cares about lack of stealth, speed and air cleared by F-22A would make that up, and we’d have two types of aircraft, both twin engined, with similar range, that would beat anything it came up against. the time could then be taken to develop the F-22C ground attack systems. legacy hornets could be formed into Air national guard type flights around Australia, and the rest committed to the ghan for “expenditure”, and great CAS mission experience.
Again, the F-22 simply is not a possibility for Australia.
As for rebarreling F-111’s, I don’t personally know how good a condition they are in or how long one could realistically/economically keep them combat worthy.
i think even you cant find much fault with that scoot, but i know what you know- we are stuck with F-35, and we should just deal. but what type is best for Australia? the A, B, C? i think it should either be the B or C. B because of our purchase of the Canberra class carriers? or the C, because the extra ruggedness of the C is suited to FOB operations a bit more?
I can see where maybe 1 squadron of F-35B &/or 1 squadron of F-35C may have some merit but for the cost, the F-35A really is the best choice.
Don’t be fooled, the Canberra class are LHD (Landing Helicopter Dock) amphibious assault ships, NOT carriers. At less than 30,000 tons full load displacement they would be marginal at best at operating the F-35B.
could our F/A-18F be all converted to E/A-18G’s, apart fromt the loss of the wingtip rails, is their much combat ability lost or would the electronic attack capabilities negate that loss?
Yes the F/A-18Fs should be able to be converted to E/A-18G’s or very near to it.
pfcemReading on this forum and others I won’t mention 😮 I see a lot of complaints about how poorly many items of new kit perform, a recent example being the F22 and F35.
Pretty much all our current/legacy stuff went throught the same naysayer BS but today with the internet it is just a whole lot easier for it to be expressed & for ‘everyone’ to see/hear.
I think it is fair to say that the F-22 has proven the naysayers wrong & I have little doubt the F-35 will do the same.
The F22 will never have a two seat variant so won’t replace either F15 or the F117 and the F35 won’t have the range or carry the payload to replace the F15.
The F-22 is an Air Dominance (aka SUPER air superiority) fighter that is supposed to replace just the F-15A-D. With modern man-machine interfaces, situational awareness aides & networking that job can be done with just one pilot. And with modern flight simulators, the need for two-seat trainers for each & every aircraft in not really necessary either.
The two-seat F-15Es where built in the 1990’s (as opposed to the last USAF F-15C/D built in 1986) & as long as we do not over work them, have plenty of life still in them. Neither the F-22 nor the F-35 is intended to replace the F-15E.
Oh yeah, and the F-117 was a single seater…
pfcemIs this why the USN has been “so-so” in regards to the F-35C?
The USN is not & has not been “so-so” in regards to the F-35C.
pfcemI seriously thought the high bypass engine concept was forgotten for thr USAF…dont know where can i confirm the data of the 135?, i dont have a lot of data about it..didnt know it had such ratio
Sorry, but 0.56-0.57 IS NOT a high bypass ration.
For comparrison (number rounded to nearest 0.05).
RM8: 1.0
RB.199: 1.0
F110: 0.75
F100-220: 0.70
AL-31: 0.60
F135: 0.55
D30: 0.50
RD-33: 0.45
EJ200: 0.40
F100-229: 0.40
F414: 0.40
F404: 0.35
M53: 0.30
M88: 0.30
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