dirtyharryChildhood memory
Gentlemen:
I had been sitting in a Sikorosky Sea King Helicopter in 1972 a very sunny summer afternoon. I was just a year and half child, my dad and all the visiting people of HK citizens boarding an US navy aircraft carrier, the name of that carrier couldnt remembered. Two US navy men put me on the seat of that Sea King. It was many years later until I known that helicopter was Sea King. For me that was a scary expeience, not because of that helicopter it was because that was the first time I know saw something I thought it was a monster! But anyway thanks that two pilots,very appreciated!
Regards
dirtyharryI dont want to comment the model but I wish someone can compare
the three aircrafts:
Su24,Tornado,JH7/A
The Fencer was the mainstay in RuAF till now. It has been used in Afaganistan war in 1980s. The JH7/A owed much resemblances as the Fencer except the wing’s configuration. It was brilliant and wise to adopt the swept wings instead of swing wings. Also the FBW can gives the plane much agility and manuverable than the Fencer. If China can aquire a better engine to replace the WS9 turbofan,it was too clumsy. I viewed the JH7A was between Tornado and Fencer,which the Tornado has a significant upper hand!
All the three above aircrafts were dedicated attack planes and they will be replacing by multi role fighters like F15E,Su30MKK.The JH7/A went into service too late and that was a very sad thing.The further introducing Su30Mkk will further reducing the JH7/A into PLAAF/N .Ironically the JH7A did boosted the Russian’s export of Su30MKK to China!
The PAF must consider a fighter/attacker partnership with FC1/FBC1 as a force to balancing the IAF’s aggressive rivary. There (India Pakistan theatre)must be a theatre for FBC1 to practice her might!
Regards
dirtyharryThe 33rd fighter division deployed in Choinquin indeed is dedicated reacting to India. Since India detonated nuclear devices in 1998 was a challenging at China’s national security,those deployment in peace time was very necessary.
And those Su27s will escort heavy bombers H6s into India’s heart land to stop any further provocations like launching ballistic missles!
Only one division wasnt enough to neutralizing threats from India, PLAAF should deploy more J11s to the Chendu district to carry out deeper escorts for H6s bombers in order to counter India’s new threat the Agni missles!
China was over deploying Su30s at the Taiwan Strait,since China has 500 SRBMs already,Taiwan will be serverly damaged under China’s strike.And the Patriot Pac3 was no match of such a massive SRBMs also Taiwan has limited airports available.At least one division of Su30MKKs should deploy to support the 33rd division in order to make India’s Agni missles under PLAAF’s control.After the J10s went into service in quantity J10 will be deploying both Taiwan Strait and the Chendu military district to achieve greater air superiority!
Regards
dirtyharryLOL SOC!
I have to confess my English was terrible made you missed my meaning. Thanks reply!
I said : “Changing a fighter from attack plane to air superiority ……J10 is exception.
The Attack plane I referred to was Lavi not J10. It wasnt possible for Lavi to be changed as an air superiority fighter,since the engine power was under US restrictions. Lavi was an attack plane initially not air superiority.
But my point is the J10 was an re-incarnation of Lavi, that was I viewed and it was re-born as an air superiority fighter in China.
And that was very difficult,because that was re- engineering an aircraft. Like the Su27s was re-engineered from an early prototype, I couldnt remember the prototype was T10s or not. But I mean the one you can see in Russian aviation museum.
J10 was done a great deal re-engineerings from Lavi like the Flanker did.
Man! The Mig 15 was a captured German designs the Ta183, the soviets put the RR Nene engine in an re-engineered airframe as China doing over J10 now.
The F111B you stated wasnt appropiate.Because F111B never went into service. Yes it was an intercetor for US navy CVG,but it was too heavy just like the Tornado F3.
Whether the Israelis know anything about F16 during they design the Lavi, I am not sure, but I believe Erez ‘s claim. Because the Lavi was on the drawing board already in mid 1970s soon after Kfir went into IDFAF, in those days IDFAF were interested with F15s.The F16s went into service was because Iran’s revolution, those plane ordered by the IIAF were sanctioned and went to Israel early than expected.So how do they know much of the F16s? By the way Ronald Regan kill ed the project was because the Lavi may causing rivary to F16s’dominance, how can the General Dynamics so generously asisting such a rival to their own,it wasnt their interests.But the engine indeed was benefited from USA.
Regards
Regards
dirtyharryWasnt a good idea to buy Backfire
The Backfire bombers were very difficult to maintain it’s combat readiness. First it was a very sopisticated bomber, very powerful, but you have to see we are not buying new aircrafts, these aircrafts were built in 1980s, average 20 years of age. Does Russia can gurantee the fleet’s READINESS to fly is very questionable! Even newer bomber like the Tu160 had been crashed two months ago killing all the crews on board. The backfire were very difficult to value their seviceability. That wasnt a plane can fly can be put into combat and that was a reason PLAAF/N dont like second hand stuffs.
The much UNSTEALTHYNESS of Tu22Ms made it easy to be shoot down if it flies without escorts,so I wont think the deal will go through!And so does Mig31s,they were too obsoleted!
If China wants to stop US CVGNs she will choose submarines instead of bombers to do this task, at least submarines has much Stealthyness!
Regards
dirtyharryExactly, SOC you got my point!
One of the worst cons in our armed forces was we lack of experienced technicians to support our demands. Even US armed forces is hard to keep up combat readiness to their air fleet with many different variants of engines. What I mean is the J10 is the right thing to choose the AL31 engine and it is good to make it single engine. One engine powering two planes is a great ease of workload and trainning the ground service support personals. You see the AL31 engine is a giant compared to PW1120. ,the plenty of power just made the plane formidable. The Lavi was designed to be a close air support aircraft to take over skyhawks/Kfir/phantom. And China use the J10 as a air superiority fighter, that was a big change. The Tornados was an air to ground attack plane, I mean GR1/4/IDS. It was no good as Tornado F3being air to air combat, J10 made a new page in aviation history. Changing the combat role of an air superiority fighter to attack aircraft is easy: F15/F15E Su27/Su30s Mirage3/5/nesher/Kfir they were all those example. Changing an attack plane to air superiority fighter is difficult! J10 is an exception.
Also the Lavi has nothing to do with F16s, I mean the aerodynamics configuration,the americans just reject any canard designs. There was an experimrntal plane built by Germany the X31( if you remembered)it looks like Lavi ,X31 was look alike F16 its air intake was under fusalage too so Germany copied Lavi? Or Lavi copied X31? Thats just nonsences and I never spend a second to argue.The JH7 was resemblances with Tornado and I believe it maybe copied from Tornado,just it wasnt swing wing design! There is nothing feel wrong about who copied who, it is you believe it or not.But I believe China did benefited from Lavi just we want a larger Lavi to fit our air superiorty demands.
Regards
dirtyharryErez, please keep posting
Erez:
Dont be upset by those reckless mannered opinions,keep coming & posting to J10 thread, we are much happy to read your post.
By the way, Chinese people were much welcome Israelis. And our country welcome your country’s president “Mr Katsav”just visited China two weeks ago! And China welcome Israelis leader! There is nothing right and damn not true as what about “PLA”,”goldendragon” claimed about in their previous posts and I am damn sure they were childish!
I must defend my country: China’s reputation!
Now back to our aviation topic, people! You dont want the webmaster kill this thread,do you? Be serious!
The J10B photo was very flourish, but that was a real pic. As you seen the plane’s image was in accurate scale,it shouldnt be photoshoped! Those cut away drawings were meaingless for us, because the artist can draw whatever they like. Those cutaway drawings were good for viewing dont take it too serious! You see, the J10 cut away drawing was almost match the Lavi cutaway drawing! That was only FOOLS can done, the most stupid thing an artist can done! Just like I remove my Fiat logo of my car and stick a mercedes symbol over and telling people I drive mercedes! That doesnt worth you people quarreled for, even the Lavi cutaway was the artist himself only! False informations were everywhere,not a second worth to comment, period!
Since Lavi was too small and underpowered (Due to PW1120’s restrictions) The J10 must be redesigned to fit the AL31 engine, that was a great deal of work! You coulnt find any other aircrafts in aviation history has such a great change. Take a simple analogy, the P51 mustang was powered by the ALlison engine and it was a failure,it was the RR merlin engine gave the Mustang a new era and boosted the Mustang to be the best fighter in WW2. I wont say the J10 is a very successful fighter through it came to service too late. But without the AL31 engine,J10 has no future. And it is true for every aircraft, the engine is bad, the aircraft is history! There is not much purpose to design a twin engine J10,if J10 goes twined the aircraft weight will be increased unless the engines were powerful enough,otherwise the weight/thrust ratio will be downed.It is not good for a light weight fighter. One of the reason why China continue to develope J10 in the 1990s instead just purchasing Mig29s was because PLAAF wants to reduce the workload of engines maintainence.And single engine plane is convienient to achieve combat readiness!
The introduction of double seats J10 is a milestone that this aircraft is going to full productions and require a combat trainer to training pilots. Unlike those Soviet combat trainer Mig25/29, the J10 dont have to absent the radar in order to give out space for the trainnee seat!
Regards
Regards
dirtyharryGentlemen please be gentle!
I wish all of you stop those meaingless argue and those blashings about race or ethnics those were totally wasnt an adult’s behaviour and is shameful.Please respect yourself . We have the common interest about aviation, why we cannot can get along? That is a very simple question and you know it! You dont want the webmaster Kill this thread ,huh? So please be gentle and behave in the right manner!
By the way I would like to tell goldendragon,PLA. Both of you please dont insulting other people and their country.
I want to tell you not because I am an israeli or american. It was because I am a Chinese. And I want to convince you two: you are sh;ting our Country honour. Even someone opinion was unwelcome to you, can you tolerate those opinions? And why people of other country have to agree with you with everything? Both of you are too biggoted! Just an advice good to you both!
I think it is very normal if foreigners comment China or Chinese military that was based on foreign inventions. I mean Erez has no offense to us and I respect to his opinions everytime after I read! Dont you people think he is a valuable admirer of J10/Lavi development? It is very interesting for me to know someone in Israel ‘having the same interestwith us! I am very happy to see his opinions and so does everyone! And I view everyone’s opinions in a very open minded way,why both of you cant? The J10 was inherriated from Lavi? GOOD! we can get rid of those AWFUL Russian stuffs,we are much appreciated!
Regards
dirtyharryIs there any JH7A going to exports
China is always generously providing Pakistan the weapons they need. The J8II was a failure designs that has no will from Pakistan to acquire. But Pakistan has a fleet of A-5s fantan planes. These planes should be replaced with better attack planes. The JH7A is an ideal successor of A-5s. Now JH7A or known as flying leopard is on full productions. If Pakistan can accept this plane would be a relief of their urgency need of new planes.The French Mirages 2000-5/9 were very expensive planes like ferrari, they couldnt satisfying the demands of quantity.
dirtyharryThe Zhuhai airshow did exhibited a photo of a H6 with underwing carrying four missles(known as YJ63). And these missles were so heavy that doesnt seems to be YJ83. Because YJ83 was a derrivative of C801 class missles and dont need a stragetic bomber to carry.
Those missles were 1500kg class and the reason why carrying by H6 was they were so heavy,bulky and not JH7A can carry. They were the same class as Popeye missle,so I believe JH7A is still a anti ship bomber as primary mission.
By the way how much thrust was increased in JH7A’s new domestic made engine? (WS9) And does it has any link with Sprey?Basically terrian following capbaility like the Tornados has no meanings in modern warfare. China should put more efforts in air to ground weapons instead of improving the aircraft’s flying performance. Tornados in Iraq is rely on those JDAMS/JSOW to attack instead of her designed special flying performance.
PS: crobato join the discussion in ASW helos thread, I am going
to discuss Z9C in PLAN service.
dirtyharryWhy did each MK2 was double the value of MKK? Did Russia exports their bunker blasting bomb to China in the deal?
dirtyharryCan anyone (crobato) tell us about the ordances carried by JH7A? China must have producing LGMs for this aircraft,but dont know whether TVGMs were available for JH7A or not.
dirtyharryI am wondering the air to air combatability beteen J10 and other F16s (F16C/D F2 F16I). In terms of air to air combat J10 should have the highest T/W ratio. But since China want J10 to be a air superiority fighters she has no air to ground attack capable.
PLAAF should consider to upgrade the J10a’s attack power like the F16I’s extra fusalage fuel tanks,heavy ordance liftings power and additional ECMs…present development of J10 is still
plenty and it is too conservative to just limiting it only A to A combat!
dirtyharryThe Nato F16s operators has a very high attrition rates. Every issue of AFMs written off pages you can read the crashes of those europeans F16s accidents. Most accidents were pilots’ faults!
dirtyharryThe JH7A is soley service in the Navy
The PLAAF did not ordered any JH7A ! Janes must be confused!
Only PLAN air corps was the JH7A customer.
The Tornados and JH7A has so many resemblances. Except no swing wings,but thats doesnt matter! JH7A can reach 9000kg ordance load, that is a very powerful load of weapons!And she is able to standby the superhornet !
Now the PLA should focus their efforts in upgrading LGMs TVGMs or satellite GMs to make this plane much survivalability!It’s time for Q5 to phase out!
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