NeptuneHitting land targets is indeed not an issue, but I don’t think that’s a Kilo’s task. It would bring a Kilo well within the range of MPA and it’s really not suited for such a task. Better stick to its anti ship task and then you do need the ability to tackle moving targets.
Tampering with a subs basic is not a good idea , I still have my doubts on the Viability of adding a extra module on existing kilo without coming across stability issue .
Did it ever occur to you that the Russians have a HUGE history of such operations??? Rebuilding Julliet, Whiskey, Yankee, Echo, Hotel, Typhoon, Victor etc. Even Alpha’s got a new reactor comparment changing from metal cooled to PWR, did it ever occur to you that the trouble you mentioned for Kilo were a LOT larger in some of these conversions? Still they managed to solve them didn’t they?
Victor, when you add a missile module, still retain the adjecent tanks and additional volume for extra batteries. The missiles themselves aren’t that big. Engines might be changed after all, same with propellor. I think they upgraded the engines of the other Upgraded Kilo’s too. Shouldn’t be too much a of a problem for them.
As I mentioned above, they didn’t change much on Amur either, most of the adaptations can be done within the extra module itself.
If they insert a 10m long section, the displacement would increase at about 645t. Frictional drag is very limited, shape drag is certainly not a problem as it’s still protected by the bow.
All in all not a real problem if they have looked into it. They wouldn’t try if it were too much of a problem. Of course I don’t leave the option out that the source just made a mistake and that it actually was the regular Klub upgrade.
NeptuneIn fact it doesn’t, if you put it near the sail, it won’t be that much of a stability issue and as the centre of gravity of such missiles will be nearly in the middle, it will not really affect your transverse stability either (just a little bit, but you can compensate for that anyway).
As for Amur, the only difference between Amur and Kilo insertions is that Kilo already sails. Amur was not at all started from scratch, they added the module just like they would do with a Kilo, nothing really hard about it. Speed and discretion is only minimally affected if anything at all.
Still remains a stupid idea as the question rises: how the hell is a Kilo going to fire a missile at a target 300km away? How will it detect that target and put the missile towards it? They don’t really use a satellite based system like the Russians do and bringing a plane or helicopter in only gives you disadvantages in combat.
Neptunetoo many holes in it to be correct, installing vls in already built submarine would invove the sub being cut in half then installing the cells and then the sub being wielded back together. We would have probably know about it by know if it was being done,it remind me of the rumours back in 2000 of kilo being fitted with 8 vls cells.
So? Not really a problem. There’s a bulkhead just below the front of the sail, you can exactly cut it there and put your new module in, will also be near your longitudinal centre of floatation, not a bad place. On the other hand there is some spot aft where you could do the same, although that would mean that you have to either remove part of your sail’s aft, or put your missile module more aft, with all the risks of stability and engine connection. Nonetheless very possible.
Could also be some source that got it all screwed up, thought about Klub/Yakhont incorporation and just assumed that it would follow the Amur practice…
NeptuneNot that hard to get. The BPE will be an LHD, generally a helicopter carrier, with less advanced equipment and a different role from the outset. Basically her role would be landing marines, amphibious and not really giving aircover to the fleet. The latter role would be only carried out when the real carrier is not there. Cheaper due to use of civil equipment. (Commercial Of The Shelf/military off the shelf (COTS/MOTS system))
NeptuneAFAIK, project 1157 is an AGI type.
NeptuneI told you, money is once again the answer. In the West it costs you about $100mlln or more to dismantle a ship of Asbestos alone, then you still have to add the price of the scrapping itself.
If you send it to a cheap yard in India, without really mentioning all the dangers, you get it scrapped much much cheaper.
The high price of asbestos removal is caused by the use of special equipment and risk fees you have to pay to those workers. In India, they simply don’t have such equipment or protection. If one of the workers dies, than they consider that the risk of the job.
NeptuneHmm, that is strange! 21kts, I think they are going to put regular diesel engines in that, probably merchant stuff then.
300mlln is really too little, they might have just put aside 300mlln this year and do that for two more years to fully pay it. Labour is cheap in Spain, but not that cheap I suppose.
The Cavour is something different. Not really Bureaucracy as you call it. Classing it has several advantages (and it’s not THAT expensive). (one of them is that you can actually sell it easier afterwards)
NeptuneBecause that SPanish price isn’t correct! $300mlln is NOTHING. You can hardly buy a modern frigate for that price. Maybe some corvettes, but nothing like a carrier though.
Another explanation is that Cavour is one of the first warships to be classed by a “merchant” Classification Society, namely RINA (they don’t have an excellent reputation though), but those Societies are extremely expensive to hire, add to it that they needed a new set of regulations to class a carrier and that of course the carrier has to be built taking these rules in account, something more expensive than just designing and building it.
NeptuneNo problem Max Pain, wasn’t really directed at anyone specific. I know those articles saying 8000t, actually there is a huge number of such articles. I’m affraid they have just been copying each other. I’m not sure either what it would be, some recent report said 4,500t… Either one could be right, while in fact both could be wrong too!
But the estimated cost of $400mlln also suggests it would be something like Talwar. I guess if it really were something like a Sovremenny, that it would at least cost $700mlln (similar to Sovremenny).
But as mentioned, no one knows, as said in a different article, no models of this new frigate were ever displayed, only the designers and construction people have seen it.
NeptuneNo problem Max Pain, wasn’t really directed at anyone specific. I know those articles saying 8000t, actually there is a huge number of such articles. I’m affraid they have just been copying each other. I’m not sure either what it would be, some recent report said 4,500t… Either one could be right, while in fact both could be wrong too!
But the estimated cost of $400mlln also suggests it would be something like Talwar. I guess if it really were something like a Sovremenny, that it would at least cost $700mlln (similar to Sovremenny).
But as mentioned, no one knows, as said in a different article, no models of this new frigate were ever displayed, only the designers and construction people have seen it.
NeptuneIt’s against all regulations, I think it’s logical that they send it back. Save money in exchange for some people’s lives…
NeptuneOf course, English is the official maritime language. French is by no means important although some of their terms are still there in abbreviations like Cv which comes from “Cap vrai” (means True Heading in English) and others.
But apart from that, English persons probably don’t know the French terms, while the French HAVE TO know the English terms.
Even the Russians need English speaking sailors among their officers. Although, in an exercise with the Italian Navy, the Italians complained about the bad English communication by the Russians. (and very few Italians speak Russian I guess).
NeptuneWise, why do you want to know?
It’s the DRBI-23B(iirc) 3D air search radar. Diameter is about 12m. Just an old ship built back in 1965 or so… Not unique, the Dutch Tromp destroyers used to have it too.
This is Suffren, so it must be an old picture, as she is already out of service. Her sole sister Duquesne, D603 is the only survivor with this old feature.
The two smaller balls are the Syracuse Satcom antennae.
The advantage is not there, it’s just old. The “advantage”, actually more “purpose” of such a fiberglass radome is to protect the radar antenna from smoke and heavy wind. Strong winds can slow down your radar when the antenna is very large. It makes it turn slower, which is of course bad for the motor driving it and for your own coverage. Therefore the large “lightweight” radome is put around it.
NeptuneThey actually plan 40 corvettes and 20 frigates.
The You don’t know the displacement of this ship, some reports say it’s 4500t, which would then probably mean it’s a derivative of Talwar (with the RBU launcher exchanged for Medvedka-2. On the other hand, Sovrmenny is also slightly more than 8000t and would still fit the description of weapons. There could be either VLS Uragan or two single arm launchers, like Sovremenny. There could be two Kamov helicopters like in Udaloy too… The weapons don’t say anything about the ship itself. It’s not because it has only 4 different systems that it therefore is a small ship. Look at a Burke compared to a Zeven Provinciën or Sachsen, they both fit the description of “helicopter, cannon, SM-2, CIWS,Tomahawk (not yet in Zeven provincien, but still possible), torpedoes, Harpoon and ESSM. On the hand of this description you could could they are similar ships. In reality on the other hand…
I also heard they would use Palash on this ship, but only read one or two reports mentioning that, any further news about that? I do have pics of the Palash testing bed, a Tarantul III, but the Palash mounted there, only had the guns. (could be the Palma-SU for Vietnamese Gepard class frigs too then).
NeptuneThey actually plan 40 corvettes and 20 frigates.
The You don’t know the displacement of this ship, some reports say it’s 4500t, which would then probably mean it’s a derivative of Talwar (with the RBU launcher exchanged for Medvedka-2. On the other hand, Sovrmenny is also slightly more than 8000t and would still fit the description of weapons. There could be either VLS Uragan or two single arm launchers, like Sovremenny. There could be two Kamov helicopters like in Udaloy too… The weapons don’t say anything about the ship itself. It’s not because it has only 4 different systems that it therefore is a small ship. Look at a Burke compared to a Zeven Provinciën or Sachsen, they both fit the description of “helicopter, cannon, SM-2, CIWS,Tomahawk (not yet in Zeven provincien, but still possible), torpedoes, Harpoon and ESSM. On the hand of this description you could could they are similar ships. In reality on the other hand…
I also heard they would use Palash on this ship, but only read one or two reports mentioning that, any further news about that? I do have pics of the Palash testing bed, a Tarantul III, but the Palash mounted there, only had the guns. (could be the Palma-SU for Vietnamese Gepard class frigs too then).
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