Oh, most are UK guys? I don’t actually leave the Navy section, occasionally I visit the missile section, but otherwise I haven’t really been looking around. In the naval section I think there are more US guys.
Those pictures are there check the naval forum on this siteAir Combat Information Group
It shows recent pictures of Moskva, the Black Sea Fleet flagship, being laden with Bazalt missiles (three at once, which basically means that those tubes were empty before, they only seem to receive missiles in batches, when the ship is empty). Vulkan looks different from Bazalt in configuration, but size is the same and so is the launcher. Difference lays in lay-out of wings and booster.
As for capability and threat, the main/largest threat to Russia would be China at the moment and then it would be most handy to have your three Slava’s together in Vladivostok as one Slava won’t be of much use.
the “capabilities” requirement depends on “requirements” and for now Russia has no need for carriers, so scrapping Kuznetsov (or selling her) would still be a good idea, indeed loss of capability, but it would still fit the requirement.
I heard they tried to sell Kuznetsov to India before, but that the ship was denied by the Indian govt, any other news on this?
I have seen that reason mentioned many and many times over, but the fact is that it doesn’t happen. The missiles/canisters/storage containers are all equiped with test-mechanisms, once laden, the missile’s status can be checked inside the canister. If something fails during that test, it just isn’t being launched.
The main advantages in cold-launch the Russian way, was its weight. The Klinok is reladen by seven to eight men, the container can be carried to the launcher and is put on a rail that is put on top of the launcher. Then it’s slid down in its position. Something I have seen very rarely with a hot launch mechanism. And of course the system can be unladen and weight even less. Then the only thing there is just the top strengthened hatch and the underdeck support. For hot launch canisters, they have a lot of weigth themselves, even when unladen.
Add to it that it’s much cheaper to adjust a land-based system for naval applications this way as you don’t entirely have to develop a new launcher, you just have the storage and launch cilinder which does the work. The ship’s installation is kept to a minimum. (but that is not a real advantage typical for Cold Launch as not every navy uses derivates of land-based systems on ships.
You can also ask why they don’t use the Tor system instead of klinok. Well the answer is the same, the Tor reloads come in packs of four and are a lot heavier, not possible to reload these manually.
Yet for other Navies that could be a possibility for the future though.
What I meant with that is, if the Vulkan was a success, then they would most probably kept the subs and incorporated Vulkan on the other Slava class cruisers too. Yet they didn’t. On the other hand, if they wanted to cut costs, better get rid of the Slava’s as they are the only three ships having Bazalt and they have to send the Bazalt missiles all over the country as all three are in a different fleet, a couple of 1000 miles away from each other.
(should be said that those ships don’t really carry that many missiles anymore either). And there are a lot more useful cancellations to do if they wanted to save money. Smetliviy being one of those.
IF all your sources are genuine (and up till now I have not had a real reason not to believe so, except for you being a bit over pro-russian), then I have to appologize. I have only followed the Russians and hence must have missed the US failures. Maybe they should be posted here too in the future, but I suppose not many people care about it and as most here are US people, they probably don’t want to show it.
So, I sincerely appologize for my bad information.
Austin, I think the learning curve of Russia is one of the most advanced in the world, they probably know a lot more about launching missiles/rockets than India, yet they do have considerably more failures. The money at stake doesn’t really allow for so many risks to be taken, normally it shouldn’t go wrong, I can’t remember the last French or US rocket that came down by failure, yet Russian ones do it all the time. As The statement that they have proven their missiles still work isn’t really right either, as last year two SLBMs failed to launch from a Delta IV, they didn’t even come out, afterwards, two of them failed due to loss of track etc., then this year another SLBM, with the ESA satellite failed to launch too from the St-George (Delta III). I think it’s pretty doubtful how good they still are.
Garry, you must have noticed that the Russians don’t really care about such insurance things, normally you wouldn’t transport a nuclear submarine in bad weather with non-closed hatches, yet they still tried it… Accidents often happen there, and most of the time they’re just caused by neglect, if that missile will be launched, then you better tell it’s fit for the task or your collegue will do that for you and you can go look for another job.
I think it’s quite worrysome nowadays, they better start doing some good launches, otherwise ESA will try to find a better alternative for their satellites and that would be quite some loss…
The picture/drawing you show, is basically the cutting off of the first part of Kursk, the yellow towers you see on the side are the suction anchors. The yellow line is the cutting wire, they gradually tighten the cable and “suck” the anchors in to maintain an angle. This way the cable cuts itself through the hull and cuts off the front part. But, as I have indicated, there might have been a cable to keep her upright somewhere, as the denting near the hole somewhat suggests.
On another note, you can see the hole shown in this picture too, in the middle of the red rectangle. You will also see that the hole has the “entrance” of a cable on top, it’s not just a round hole as seen in the other angle. So basically I don’t think you guys need more explanations to see it’s rather stupid to think this hole is from a torpedo or other superweapon of some kind. It’s just something that came with the Salvaging work.
Austin your holes don’t appear on Brute’s last picture though, I think it’s just some decoloration due to the bad quality of the picture.
As for Kursk, they didn’t test on her, they just sent some parts from that same metal to Holland to do some tests for the drilling.
She wasn’t built as “unsinkable” either, the outer hull is just a hydrodynamic “suite”, you can also compare the thickness of that hull with that of the pressure hull as you can see it rather well on the pictures. Some other pictures also indicate this. The outside hull is rather weak, much like a car’s outside.
It’s just news, I must thank him for placing the news here as I would have otherwise not come across it. They seem to have some problems with their launches lately, the failed launch from St-George not so long ago of an ESA satellite was just another example. I think it has to do with their missiles, they try to get the most out of their old ****nal, but I think most of them have exceeded their lifetime by now.
The one on the left, I can’t really see anything there. The second one, on the sail, is just one of her signs painted on the side of the sail. The one in front of that, is just a black hole, I think one of her navigation lights.
The list you see, is fake, it’s just the hull shape, she’s not flat on the bottom. To put something in a dry dock, you have to be really careful in positioning it, you have to put the support blocks etc. just below some frames and bulkheads as otherwise the ship will collapse under its own weight and pressure caused by that.
You can see the answers to your “sail questions” here.
http://smit.clickfactor.nl/kursk/salvage/index.htm
This site is very interesting, although they don’t show pictures of the ship in dry-dock, only the one posted above.
Nonetheless you can very well see where they have drilled the holes and the cutting methods are also in one of the download files.
It should be said that this is the most dangerous part of Marine operations, the off-shore world, fingers and limbs get lost, people get cut in parts, underwater explosions etc. Lots of dead people there. Nasty job, but nice payment. As you can see on the hole drilling pictures, these holes will most probably not be exactly round shaped. They also explain that some of the holes, depending on the spot, are differently shaped.
the side hole, it is assumable that a cable has just cut itself a way into the steel, you have to imagine the pressure of a few thousand tons of steel on a wire(s) with a diameter of approx 100mm. You can also see the “entrance” of that cable in the right upper corner of this hole.
This is what I think the wire went, could be very wrong of course, but judging from the hole and the wreckedge around it and on the pressure hull cutting edge, I think it’s possible.
I have taken a second look, the thing on the upper left you have notified is a piece of the dry dock, the hull is intact in that area.
Brute,
the other “lifting” holes were made on top of the submarine. But, as you can see, it is very hard to make a hole in this part, as you would have to make a hole in the lid of the launcher, which is by all means of doubtful strength. Better to make the hole on the side then.
On the other hand, It could have been a cable to keep the sub in an upright position, only made later, not for lifting.
Another option is just that they’ve banged her against something and that a rock or something tore a hole in the structure, the water and pressure changes encountered during lifting such weakened hulls causes extra damage too. With this kind of weights you a very small collision with an object gives some very bad damage.
So basically, it could be a lifting hole, but I am not sure of that, there are other options for cutting a hole in the hull. The curve around the hole, slightly going aft and down could very easily be created by a steel wire to keep the sub upright in the dry dock. (what do you mean with Strech Mark?)
On this picture, you can see the “plane” they have cut, not a clean cut as it seems, but that is again caused by raising the weakened sub, you can see many parts hanging further forward of the cut, metal that has been bent forward etc. some of it will probably have bent aft too…
The green line, shows the cut off 11m pressure hull. (I refer to the picture above to have a check yourself as the green line blocks it, but shows which part I mean). Another note, above that green line, slightly to the right, you can see that pressure hull is quite torn apart, again something that leads to think they have put a steel cable in there to keep her at her place. The cable most probably cut her way down/aft towards the hole. Only an assumption of course.
On the other hand, if it really were a torpedo hole or something doubtful enough for any specialist to see, the Russians would have had about a year, with all this off-shore cutting equipment in place, to cut that hole out or cover up any doubtful sign of such a hit. If it really was doubtful, they would have probably made a rectangular hole, removing some entire plates and no one would have been nagging. It wouldn’t even be a problem to ask Mammoet to do that as these companies can earn extra money with this and basically only few people would know about this operation.
Just a few ideas.
Edit, forgot the picture, here it is:
Since when is a torpedo broader on the aft side than on the front side?
And depressurising happens with planes, as they fly in thin air, with subs you’d get the adverse effect.
But how many times more do I have to tell these holes were CUT while salvaging the sub???
That’s a cutting wire…
If not cut by this, then it was done by the Abrassive Jet Cutter used to make the holes for lifting cables. They have cut 26 holes in the submarine, about 700mm in diameter, slightly larger on the outer hull. Now, if you compare that diameter with the size of the humans that stand below it, you can estimate it is approx. 700-1000mm, which is very accidently the size of the cut holes to lift her.
The red rectangle shows one of the Granit tubes, if a torpedo would have hit there, it would have been blown and wrecked. But it isn’t. The tube posed quite a problem for the lifters as they at first didn’t know where to put the lifting holes… The cut was clean, but other damages have been posed by lifting the vessel. By cutting holes and having a huge blast like Kursk obviously had, the structural strength was gone. Some loose plates fall of by the current, some are just loose by the former blast etc.
I remember, Mad Hack was the name of that radar.
It’s one of the stickies in the Naval section of the forum as most of the info there comes from Naval applications.
I think it’s because the general range is smaller than a radar’s. Radar is terrible in bad weather too… You really don’t want to rely on it then. I have a few pics to show that. You can see that in the “Radar Formulae” thread at http://www.acig.org, some pictures of navigation radars are shown there during a storm and during normal operation. You can see what such circumstances can cause. If you have seen the movie of the latest large execise of the Russian Navy, with Admiral Ushakov being blown around, you have an idea how impossible it is to fight in real bad weather.
No matter what radar or what missile/seeker you use, you better avoid fighting in bad weather.