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Neptune

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Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 606 total)
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  • in reply to: Croatian stealth(y) patrol boats for Libya #2072189
    Neptune
    Participant

    Given the sideview, I ‘d rather think they are mounted Skjold NSM style. Mounted below decks but with a raising box launcher that comes up when they are about to fire a missile.

    in reply to: My big idea. #2072210
    Neptune
    Participant

    I think it’s an excellent idea.
    SOC, the Klub is also mounted in these tubes, the VLS is simply a rack that holds these tubes. So wether you would put a SAM tube or an SSM tube in it, doesn’t really have complications for the VLS.
    I’m not sure about the radars though. Depends on the size they have, otherwise they could try to use a mast like the APAR mast on 7 Prov. (Mast on Alvaro looks ugly 😉 )
    You could also mount Medvedka in if you manage to change the dimentions a bit.

    It doesn’t really fit in the Russian idea of having several radars for different missiles. It would mean that once you hit the Kvant or bridge, you wouldn’t have any AAW system operational. At this moment they use several radars, which allows them to continue the fight if one or more are hit.
    This is of course just a thought, they could as well change this practice.

    I suggest you now design that ship, call it project 22355, project Lawrence and sell it to the Russians 😀

    in reply to: Update please #2072332
    Neptune
    Participant

    The Sea Kings will be different, but I suppose the measurements, like bolt sizes etc. will be the same. They’ll have a lot of parts in common too, but I don’t think it’ll be identical.
    The ship on the other hand… 😮 I think the only usefull thing they can do with it is take it apart, look very well how it was constructed and start from there to make their own indigenous improved design.

    Here’s something on them, I know it’s not the best of sources:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Sea_King

    in reply to: Update please #2072362
    Neptune
    Participant

    Harry what does EHOG mean?

    Anyway, Turbinia is right. All the projects you mention (that are in service) have foreign equipment. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, everyone can design a hull, it’s the systems that make it a warship. Even P17 will have a foreign air defence suite, although Trishul and Akash have been under development for ages. They have opened the bids for “a stealth” frigate from a foreign designer, that doesn’t mean anything good. Technology Transfers are never quite like a real technology transfer, you’ll always stumble upon some secrets and of course will miss out the idea behind a design.

    For China it’s going the good way, although still reliant on foreign technology too.
    Although I have to disagree on the idea of having China near the top in some years. For now they are just benefitting from our long-ago industrial revolution. It took the West about 20 years or more to fully develop their industry. Nowadays China, and other Asian countries, are doing that same revolution in about 8-9years. That is just because they can import all the developments from the West. That will indeed make sure they will come alongside pretty fast, but that also means that any advance from that point on will be very hard. It will take them years to figure out all the developments they have imported so hastily and it’ll take them many more years to find their own development from that starting point on.

    in reply to: Merchant Ship conversion to Aircraft Carrier? #2072534
    Neptune
    Participant

    http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/yak-38.jpg

    A picture from the Russian Nikolay Cherkasov. This is a RoCo ship as Turbinia described. She looks a lot like Conveyor in concept but apart from this picture I never found any additional information on this project/plan.

    in reply to: Hellenic Navy (News & Views). #2072820
    Neptune
    Participant

    Nice,
    so I suppose the Italian U-212A that’s already in the water for a while can’t sail there either?
    And the Mediterranian weather is most likely a mouse compared to an elephant if you compare it with the North Sea Winter conditions… I don’t think the Germans keep their U212’s at bay during winter, so excessive rolling, I doubt so!
    Rubbish article, I wonder what the real truth behind it is. Anyone could come up with these rubbish arguments and if they would at least have some sort of logical explanation for it I would be happy to hear it. Noisy propellor? They even changed the propellor to adapt it for the +-configuration instead of U-212’s x-configuration. If they would have used the same propellor there would be a good explanation, but apart for now I don’t see it.
    Nicely made up by some non-involved people I guess. We’ve seen the same article some month ago…
    Other customers don’t seem to complain!

    in reply to: Russian Navy : News & Discussion #2072844
    Neptune
    Participant

    Ok guys, time to end this rather useless conversation.

    RBU’s work as they should and that means, against submarines. The added anti-torpedo task is made possible by firing a barrage of rockets in the direction of a torpedo at a set range or two set ranges. Otherwise, making a direct kill is a near impossibility. Practically the expanding pressure bubbles of the rockets will either deflect the topedo’s seeker signals or just blow the thing to pieces if it’s close enough.
    It’s outdated against subs as the subs have gotten a much longer range of attack by now. This is the reason why the Russians are phasing out the RBU’s in their new designs.

    Brezhnev, they don’t really need torpedo tubes. If Medvedka works as it should, then it has quite some distinct advantages over ship launched torpedo’s. First, it’s much faster to reach it’s target. Secondly it’s hard to hear it coming when it’s above the surface, unless of course the submarine is very close to the surface, but that would be fairly stupid. Third, most surface launched torpedoes have a severely limited range and hence Medvedka has a longer range.
    That is of course, if it works as it should. It’s a pretty “old” system by now and I suppose it has undergone quite some modifications.
    Of course the targetting information, discussed extensively by Radar and Garry, is the hard part of it.

    The latest Gepard versions, Gepard 5 and 6, don’t have RBU’s fitted. It is this variant that was sold to Vietnam too. It’s simply outdated and taking too much space to really justify its presence.

    Radar, the earth isn’t a globe, not a slice either though.

    in reply to: What is your best multi-purpose corvette design? #2073406
    Neptune
    Participant

    That is what they did to the Gepard design that was sold to Vietnam too. Looks pretty similar actually and a lot cheaper.

    The Tigr Export Variant is still different from this one in having Kinzhal rectangular VLS and Klub VLS. There used to be a video on the Almaz site about the normal Stereguchiy and the Upgraded Tigr version. Not sure if it’s still there.

    in reply to: Venezuela's Su-30MK2 take off to the sky! #2508072
    Neptune
    Participant

    Venezuela has an oil navy. If they would want a carrier, they could most likely buy it. Certainly with the current oil and gas revenues. But most likely they won’t want/need it. There would be more use in extra submarines.

    in reply to: Merchant Ship conversion to Aircraft Carrier? #2073507
    Neptune
    Participant

    http://www.maritimereplicas.com/images/merchantMarineCargo/MERCH-ro-ro-38.jpg

    http://www.maritimereplicas.com/images/merchantMarineCargo/MERCH-ro-ro-37.jpg

    http://www.maritimereplicas.com/images/products/roro.jpg

    Hard to see, but what you’re seeing here are a bunch of longitudinal strengteners and some moveable tween decks. They can adapt the number of decks and hence number of vehicles they can carry. If they are carrying cars, they can lower the decks and take a lot more cars. For trucks they require more height and they can pull up some decks to the ceiling and create more space between the decks.

    As for lifts, I think a container vessel with its own gantry crane would be suited too. These cranes can lift over 20-30tons and can drive along the length of the ship. Normally they collect the big hatches you see below the containers. These hatch covers weigh some 20t too, they are very strong because they have to take some of the transverse strength of the ship. So for carrier operation you could store a few aircraft below these hatches and lift them when necessary.
    Something like this:
    http://www.maritimereplicas.com/images/merchantMarineCargo/MERCH-Probo-5a.jpg

    And here is a RoCo which Turbinia seems to prefer 😉
    http://www.maritimereplicas.com/images/merchantMarineCargo/MERCH-acl---7.jpg

    You could use the back vehicle storage as a hangar with an entrance to the forward container deck if necessary.
    Once again these would be Harrier carriers and hence no true carriers.

    I’ll be waiting for that info Turbinia as I still haven’t seen a way to counter torsion with longitudinal strength members… But if the guys at Maersk have figured it out I’m pretty sure it could indeed work!

    in reply to: Indian navy – news & discussion #2073510
    Neptune
    Participant

    Thanks for the info Pred, Hadn’t seen that FREMM version yet. It seems to me that they are once again sacrificing their navigation capabilities to technical requirements. That bridge looks aweful low.
    Strange VLS mount too, I guess that’s to get their centre of gravity lower… Smart solution if it works. I wonder why those guys stick to those regular guns for CIWS like the one on top of the hangar. Any idea how many SAMs she would carry.

    Lafayette is very weakly armed and would by no means suite the Indian needs. They were designed for long range colonial patrols.

    in reply to: Indian navy – news & discussion #2073684
    Neptune
    Participant

    what I mean is that it’s often easier to design your own new hull than to adapt an existing one.
    Space is not the only requirement, weight is a lot more. You can do practically anything with it, but it has its limits. Putting Brahmos and Barak-II might cause additional weight, more stress on certain frames, maybe even a trim. Warships are generally designed to have some remaining stability and as far as I know most navy officers don’t even know how to calculate stability as their ships’ changing big weights are often just fuel and a helicopter and those are taken in account during design.
    However a trim change will affect fuel consumption and speed. Just a few remarks.
    So all together it’s easier to design a ship knowing certain specifications than to adapt an existing hull that was built for other specs.
    Are you sure about that Italian FREMM? Maybe you’re talking about Horizon? France has a proposed AAW version of FREMM too, yet it’s doubtful that it will ever be realised.

    With this budget however they can design a new hull without trouble. Look at Zeven Provincien, she’s entirely new and I doubt India will come up with anything like a Smart-L-APAR mix. Of course if they are about to buy stuff from other countries they’ll be paying a lot more.

    in reply to: Merchant Ship conversion to Aircraft Carrier? #2073701
    Neptune
    Participant

    I was thinking about REAL carriers, not the weak type of harrier carrier that has little use… Indeed for Harrier carriers the superstructure isn’t really that much of a problem.
    Turbinia, depends on what ships those were. Torsion is a very recent finding on ship’s construction. And as you probably know the entrance to the below deck spaces is as big as possible, this means that the main deck is not really helping much in transverse strength and torsion prevention. That is why they have moved the superstructure to the middle nowadays, if you put it either totally in front (which would be better to stack even more containers) or in the back, then your torsion strength and transverse strength is too small for a ship that large.

    Ja, the problem is not only that type of damage. THe problem is that they don’t have any transverse bulkheads, just one or two of them with watertight doors. That is caused by the fact that the cars come in and have to drive all the way to the front which is not possible with watertight transverse bulkheads every 10m. So, practically if this ship takes water, it goes all the way around the ship and free floating surfaces have killed many RoRo ships (Estonia, Herald of Free Enterprise etc.) it’s a real problem and the dry docking is only possible with minor damage caused by normal navigation, not caused by war.

    The stability is an even larger issue. Cars and trucks are very high volume, but low weight cargos. The ship is therefore allowed to have them rather high up. If you come with jets and of course their fuel supply, you will have to add weight to the ship and hence make their underwater shape different resulting in lower speed.
    It will of course also make your ship less stable by moving around all that weight on top of them. Stabilisers often correct for that with the cars and trucks, but they only have limited use. The deck would have to be strong too, hence weigh a lot more than the current tween decks and top deck.

    In the days of these MAC things you didn’t have any electronics, nowadays you do have to mount that navigation radar somewhere, and if possible as high as you can… Although in the end you could probably do this, if you actually manage to get rid of the stability, strength and damage control issues.

    So for harrier carriers Container ships are probably the best, but I wouldn’t call that a real carrier, the costs would most likely be too high for the thing’s worth…

    in reply to: Indian navy – news & discussion #2073802
    Neptune
    Participant

    De Zeven Provincien class comes at about 400mlln too, although that was the initial price. Afterwards they ended up in trouble and additional funding, but I’m not sure how much that was. And of course there were seperate contracts to develop APAR for 125mlln between three or more countries and so on. All together I think 600-800mlln would suffice. A Burke comes at 1.2blln, that is low because of the very long production run, but she is of course huge and more than twice the displacement you mention. That means that 800mlln for a 4,500t vessel is quite a huge budget.

    Bronco, you can’t just exchange things. Brahmos is a lot bigger and heavier than Exocet and that would bring quite some complications.
    FREMM doesn’t really have a good radar as she’s not meant to have any long range weapons. Would bring quite some trouble to change it as its mounted pretty high, so all the additional weight could cause topweight problems (and so on, just one example of how many problems you can encounter when you change stuff on ships).

    in reply to: Best Destroyer in India/China #2073805
    Neptune
    Participant

    Practically I rather think the Sovremenny EM is the best ship in China’s inventory. Two Kashtans, Shtil-1, twin 130mm gun, 4 TT’s, a helo and 8 Moskits. It’s not as stealthy as the others, but stealth is much overrated for these half-measure ships anyway. Type52B has some stealth measures, but they are not intensive enought to work to full advantage. The Delhi isn’t exactly stealth either. Kolkata is one of these will-be ships and can’t be compared to any existing ships. For now there is a break in Chinese shipbuilding when it comes to surface vessels. All yards (not only in China, but in the entire world) are full with commercial orders for now. THat means that whatever warship they intend to build, has to wait untill one of the other warships is finished to take its spot. I think they’ll stay at this for a while. They’ll have to test 52C for quite a while too. 51C seems to be failure considering her long stay in port and slow way of completion (rectifying mistakes). It would have been better to be a huge cruiser instead of what it is now.
    It will take at least 3 years to figure out all the problems in 52C, Kolkata isn’t even completed yet and Barak2 is even further away from getting ready. Then it will require another few years for ironing the bugs out of the design. (as a reference, the Zeven Provincien, was here a few weeks ago, has only recently been found really ready. Some minor errors are still there and all ships have their Electronic warfare system in front of the bridge removed because it has to get adapted, that ship is now 3 or more years old…)

    All together the Sovremenny is the most proven (with the EM having additional proven systems added) of the Chinese destroyers and most likely the strongest of them too.
    As for India, the Delhi is the only thing to compare it to…
    We don’t know that much about the other Chinese ships either. Certainly not about the sonars and ASW stuff they carry.

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 606 total)