Brez, not really a good idea there. Your Northern fleet lacks all ASW equipment. It would be ok to put a lot of ASW in the Pacific Fleet, but not at the expensive of the Northern Fleet. Don’t forget that the “new” gas and oil findings in the Kara sea will create quite some traffic to and from that area. Something you should protect as a Navy. Norway has SSKs… If you want to prepare to defend your entire country and traffic, then at least you should take those SSKs in account. Of course the Russian SSN and SSK fleet is there, but it’s better to have some choppers and surface vessels in the area too. Udaloys carry two choppers and are their best ASW hunters. It would be no real logistical problem by having some of them up North either. The Kinzhal is in use on both Velikiy, Kuznetsov and Chabanenko, so that’s no real extra logistical burden, the Rastrub is also in use on the Krivaks and most spare parts are shared with Chabanenko (Udaloy II) so all together it wouldn’t be a major improvement by putting them all in one fleet.
I would rather move some more Sovremennies to the Pacific too, at this moment they only have some Tarantuls and one or two operational Sovremennies with Moskits, China now has four Sovremennies itself…

Black Sea is not really important for Russia at the moment. It has no real economically vital ports there, so the Krivak and the rest of the test fleet there is quite enough for now. If someone really wants to trap them, they can easily do so by blocking the Bosporus, no matter if you have a Slava, Kashin or even Kirov in there. If they want to block it, they can block it. So better not to get too much of your fleet trapped there.
They would by no means be able to play the boss in the Mediterranean after all as there are the Greek, Italian and Spanish Navy and not to forget the Turkish Navy that operate in that sea. Even with a Slava, Kashin and Krivak you’re not exactly going to reach much there… Bazalt missiles are of little use in a small sea that is so actively used by Merchant ships and apart from these, the Black Sea fleet hardly has anti-ship capabilities apart from corvettes (which are rather unlikely to survive in the Med without real air cover and with short legs)

Quite unlikely that there will be any Kirov or Slava replacement. Russia doesn’t think along the Soviet lines anymore. They are not really emphasising in anti-CVBG warfare. If they move along, then they’ll probably go for smaller more dedicated ships rather than the huge all round ships.

Therefore I would rather scrap them from the fleet. The Northern Fleet is not really going to face any huge enemy anymore and I would rather see them operate the SSN fleet at full strength along with more coastal defense ships along with limited area defense. Stereguchiys are ok for those roles.

But as I have said before, those are only opinions, it is much harder to make it really happen. Even if an admiral or head of the Navy/Defence would like to see this, it would still be rather unlikely to see it happen.

I’m not getting it. They say they want to buy Sukhoi-33 and from that news only you can conclude they want Rafale??? talking about fuzzy logic… Maybe they want Superhornets? Or why not even conclude they want F-35C??? Strange conclusions if you ask me. I think it means they want Su-33 as that’s pretty much what’s been written there!

Peter the Great was not that Great, a legend yes, a big progress, yes, but he also made many people die because of his wish to build a city in a swamp…

As for China, it’s obvious that you are not watching too much ahead… Russia was the supplier of China and they were pretty happy to receive all that technology, but it has become obvious that they have learned to build and design their own things. Soon they won’t need Russia for that anymore as they already have Rif-M now. As for the oil, there you have the point. Russia has about 180million people, China has over 1.3 billion. Russia has all the oil it would need, China is still seeking to satisfy its thirst for oil. They’ll need space too sooner or later and Russia is one big empty piece of land as their population keeps decreasing. Japan is the major force in the Pacific, but Japan won’t try to invade Russia, China might just give it a try when it needs to.
As for US, it wants to keep its status, by the time anyone else develops something that might be a threat to them, they have a solution already. They are the biggest kid on the block and they want to stay as long as they can. Being the biggest, you also attracks attention which you don’t want. Countries start to look for your weaknesses etc. Plus of course, the fact that they have the money to develop it, comes in handy, but if they were money stricken like the Russian Navy they probably wouldn’t have developed it either. And Japan can use it very well too, North Korea’s missiles (your so called “flares”) have already overflown parts of Japan and that means they might even make it to a city in Japan, something to be feared.

My “suggestion” and that is only what it sais it is, a personal idea, is that they continue the road they are walking, although I would start to get rid of more ships too. In the Black Sea they don’t have an immediate threat, I would at least get rid of Smetliviy there, the only Kashin in the fleet, one of the very few ships with Uran and the only one still hanging around with SA-N-1 missiles, if it still has any of course… A big waste of money and effort if you ask me. The rest of it, move Moskva to the Pacific. There is no need for a long range anti-ship missile in the Black Sea and neither would Russia go into the Mediterranean for a real war.
As for the Northern Fleet, that fleet is still ok, they can keep whatever they have, although I would move Marshal Ustinov to the Pacific fleet too. That gives you three Bazalt carrying ships in the Pacific Fleet and hence a lot less of a headache on logistics for those, you only need one direction to send your missiles and spare parts to. They could however get rid of all these ships too if they wanted to. There is nothing to be affraid of in the next 10 years or so.

As for the new builds, continue with what they are doing. One big class of standardised ship with the possibilty of taking several task modules. The upgraded Tiger corvette alongside the regular Stereguchiys should do the job for now. Their major concern for the moment is patrolling their own borders and you don’t need a CVBG for that.

So, summarised, decrease the logistical headache they are having now, increasing the port facilities and reducing the Navy to a shorter range navy, but with more modern and stronger force. A lot better than trying to keep the big stuff running and not succeeding in it. Kuznetsov has been operational for one year and she’s already back in the docks, not exactly a good sign if you ask me. Decreasing their crews will be a result of the more modern force and hopefully they’ll learn from the Merchant on how to run things. Those ships only go in dry dock once every 5 years for a 3-week period and are run by one officer on the bridge. Navies have their ships in dry docks almost constantly and have sometimes up to 6 people on the bridge.

For now, they have to protect their borders (and first define them as that still hasn’t really happened) and oil supply. After that, if they have an increased income, they can start to think about further developments to stretch their forces.
They are keeping Sevastopol to annoy the Ukraine, but I would also start getting more money in a Russian port in that area, it can be economically attractive for merchant shipping and good as a Russian home base too.

Problem is that Russia is one big mess and making such changes would be in any country very hard. As an admiral you get inherit something and that’s what you have to continue with. Often you won’t get the time to realise a long term plan after all.
Getting money is another issue and I’d rather see Russia get good roads and a better economy than see them getting a big navy with sailors that don’t get meat because it’s too expensive (yes indeed only officers get meat in the Russian Navy and more than once have they gone home with the remains of the stocks from a Navy day in a foreign country)

a better source is http://www.navsource.narod.ru
Probably the BEST source you can find on Russian/Soviet ships. Takes a while to load though…

All Nice and Well that Russia has a big coastline, but how much of it is navigable? They have like 1/10 or 1/100th of the amount of seaports Europe has. They can hardly handle any decent seagoing vessel let alone ocean going ones. So defending a bunch of ice can hardly be done with any destroyer or cruiser really.
For Long Range SAMs, people compare national navies too much. Imagine you fight a NATO squadron. There you will see the need and force of the Spanish, Dutch and German AAW destroyers.
Russia doesn’t need any of that, as Garry said, developing something because someone else has it is not the way to build up a navy, rather the way to start an arms race. And the latter is something Russia is not yet capable of nor willing to do…
Garry it’s all about NATO and Europe, not which neighbours we have. France will not engage Germany and vice versa, does that mean they should get rid of their armed forces too? in such cases only Poland and other East European countries would require armed forces. Not exactly a situation anyone would like. NATO and European forces are there for peacekeeping, if they are gone, you’ll see things developing a totally different way. Look at US invasions, if Europe had had a stronger force, then US would probably not have put them aside so easily…

No matter how you turn it, the most likely threat to Russia is China, and do they need many big destroyers for that? I don’t think so, their submarine forces can probably do the job if used and trained correctly. As Garry mentioned a full grown carrier will be much more efficient against PLAAF than any S-400 or S300FM equiped ship.

You deeply believe… too much!

Firstly, two versions? That was only mentioned by Pinko somewhere, haven’t seen ANY Russian source state that…
As you have said, very secret and no one knows the dimentions nor weapons, you won’t get an answer by asking this over and over again. Have patience, we’ll see the thing when it comes out. As for 16 Shtil, they’d rather opt for the standard arm launcher with 22 missiles than put just 16 cells in there… If it will only be able to carry 16 Shtils then you will rather get something between a Krivak and a Grisha sized thing. As for a 54A, the Russians have better ideas than just copying Chinese things…

The plain fact is the Shtil-1 VLS is still wait for final certification that’s can be partial explain why the 22350 frigate is theoretically till now no weapon confirmed, although the talking in town is the 22350 frigate@4500 tons will have 32 cell Shtil-1 VLS while the larger version @8000 + tons will have 2X32 cells configuration.

From which “town” does that talking come? Nothing is known nor confirmed yet.

Ship design is purely based on stringent structure calculation, even you’re a expert, your “thinking” of “can do possibility” carries little weight because I and the rest of most ppl here are convinced

I have noticed that that has indeed become the arrogant way of thinking nowadays. Eventhough we have experts, our uneducated thinking is far too superior to listen to them. Noticed that in several discussions here, at least you clearly state it here and we know we are wasting our time completely.
Structural strength, all nice, but the only real problems for warships are slamming. Sheer forces and bending moments, classically a great concern of ship designers are a joke in warship design as they are nearly neglectible compared to the strength of materials used.

VLS version Talwar are better positioned than you in terms of both know how and data for calculation, however, we just fail to see 32 cell VLS Shtil-1 FFG in 3500- 4000 tonnage grade. Those with 32-cell VLS are western warship with smaller and lighter SAMs plus more compact VL design. What you try to imply here is those designers are not aware of your “flexibilities” that can be explored?

Well it’s exactly what I meant. These designers do know those flexibilities and hence it is possible to put a Shtil VLS in that ship. As mentioned before, 54A is bigger than 54, even estimated at above 4,000t.
Yes of course, let’s just deny the existence of KDX-2. And that Talwar comparison you are now sticking too… How long ago did you state it was not the right comparison? You only use it when it could support your point, nothing more nothing less. Ever thought of the fact that Talwar still has that large structure in front with the RBU and Klub VLS mounted inside? Ever noticed that 54 doesn’t have it, nor has the need to put an SSM and RBU on it and hence has probably a larger area ready for its AAW VLS? The superstructure of 54A is slightly more forward than Talwar’s, but not so much that it totally takes away all the taken by Talwar’s Klub/RBU platform.

I prefer to sticking to the “apple to apple “ practice for comparing because of my limited knowledge on ship building

Oh, I thought otherwise. I thought you were the designer of 54A considering you are so sure that it wouldn’t work to put a Shtil in there, and of course that the designers are in better positions than me to judge on that. I thought you designed it and found it impossible to imply that Shtil VLS… Too bad, I must have misjudged you.

Really don’t affect the whole ship’s performance in rougher water? Lacking of basic design data on both 054A & Talwar, so please stop talking how you can change 22 missile magazine to 32 cell VLS etc, etc, it’s just not convincing, especially all the existing platforms against your claim

uuh, which modifications do you see on the stern? to inform you, the stern is the backside of a ship… I don’t see any modification there except a helo platform that is still a helo platform in 54A… As for the modifications near the bow. As I’ve said, it is moments that count, not weights. If you modify the front, for example, the 30t weight in front, then the distance is taken from your centre of flotation, that is the centre of gravity of your waterline area. Then you multiply, for example 30t x 60m = 1800tm. All you have to do to keep your hull evenkeel is take away the same amount of moments in front as you have just added. Meaning 10t x 80m (80m from F) + 15t x 40m + 40t x 25m or of course any other, more complex saving of weight and distances. That is longitudinal stability. For transverse you play with G, B and so on. Nothing that can’t be done.

your apple to apple is not really apple to apple anyway. One is a Russian designed ship to Indian standars, the other is a Chinese (probably Russian help) to Chinese standards. For example, US Navy ships sometimes have 35 people sleeping in one room. In European navies 6 men in one room is about the maximum. I don’t have to make a drawing to explain you the difference in designing I hope. The same can count for Talwar, I haven’t been inside, nor in 54A, so I don’t know what the difference there is, but there will be one for sure. And dependent on how important they rate their crews, they might give priority to heavier weapons or to the men and so on. There are simply still a lot of unknowns in your apple to apple comparison to really compare them. Add to it that you don’t seem to have taken notice of the Kashtans on Talwar and the space and weight they take, if there were two Kashtans on 54A it would have been easier to compare.

I’m notifying once again that I’m not saying that I’m sure it’s Shtil, yet I’m saying, from the beginning on, that Shtil is a possibility that should be taken in account and if those things are Orekhs, that it is just more likely to be Shtil than any other missiles. I guess the length of the containers on deck (when they start loading and we hopefully get a picture of that) might tell us what it will be.

This seems to be the HQ-16 VLS, 4×8 fits the description, that is about to be put inside the ship. It looks rather short for Shtil, so it possibly is a Kinzhal derivate, I wonder what type of containers will go inside. Even the Russian Kinzhal launchers have box-type cells in their rotary VLS’s for Kinzhal.
I wonder if there will be Orekhs then…

Lars (Maxim at modelwarships) is one hell of a builder isn’t he. He’s working on Admiral Ushakov(Sovremenny) at the moment.