CNN really hyped up the situation big-time. They made it sound like our nation was defenseless, the F-22 was useless. They made it sound like a major national security threat and F-22 was useless. CNN was using negative hype to dramatize the situation to try to keep viewers attention. So they have all this negative misleading hype for about a half an hour before the interview. They finally have an interview with the military, and the military dispels their hype real quick. As usual there was no apology from CNN for misleading the public.
CNN would be the best media outlet if they did not have such a far lean to the left, if they did not hype things, if they would be more technically and factually correct. If they would stop stating their opinions as facts.
CNN should stop manipulating the news politically, and just stick to the facts. They are supposed to report the news, not manufacture it.
Every aircraft in history has had glitches when it first entered service and some throughout its life span, the F-22 is no exception. Having a few glitches is typical of one off an aircraft’s first deployments, there is nothing surprising about it.
Despite the fact it is typical to have technical problems, particularly early in a program, it is not surprising for the media and people with a political agenda to try to capitalize on it.
— There’s a reason none of our military personel watch CNN.
… The same reason they made Hillary Clinton’s callsign aircraft (helicopter or otherwise) “the Broom” … witch. :diablo:
Bah,
It’s same when it comes to guys talking about “the best truck evar!!!”
Like, Group 1 says Dodge rules. Group 2 says Chevy rules. Group 2 says Ford rules. They’ve each got their preferences and make fun of the others and find every opportunity to mock one another.
I don’t think these guys have any “fuss”, they’re just being retarded, and they know it. I mean, the band name “Dos Gringos” = “Two White Guys”. On their album, they’re in their flight suits, the singer has a clown suit to go with it.
I’m pretty sure if the Iraqis had F-15s and F-16s with all the latest upgrades, and they versed off against poorly equipped MiG-29s with US pilots in them, I’m sure the the US would win if the Iraqis outnumbered the US 5:1.
Modern [(bold mine)] MiG-29SMT are equivalent to the F-15Cs and F-18Cs
That statement right there proves my point. Thanks, MiG-23MLD. Your truth is nice. 😀
ColonelMarksman
In each generation of aircraft you find that aircraft of same generation and type are very evenly matched. The MiG-29 in performance weaponry and avionics did achieve parity with the F-15 but some of the best MiG-29 variants never entered production and basicly the old MiG-29A faced F-15s that outnumbered the MiG-29, were armed with AIM-120 and supported by AWACSThe F-15 has the best record only because it mostly fought MiG-21s and Su-22s. only 10%s of its kills were MiG-29s and many of the F-15`s MiG-29 kills were in BVR combat, so also there is not a total assurance all of them were MiG-29s.
To that you have to see the F-15 users do not admitt air to air F-15 losses and usually never talk about what the other sides claims.
For example one F-14 and a Panavia Tornado were claimed killed by a MiG-29 in GWI, we know those aircraft were lost but the Western sources claim those aircraft were killed by SAMs and not MiG-29s.
The MiG-25s users also claim F-15s and F-14s were shot down by the Foxbat.
This only takes you to the following conclusion, the best aircraft of the last part of the XX century, basicly were the most prolific, and that at least influenced the next generation the most, but that is very difficult to determine because in each generation each type of aircraft had advantages and disadvantages and almost all were evenly match
Technology may mark a certain generation of aircraft, but it doesn’t mark how well it fights or how great it is. Just because one was developed in the 1990s and the other in the 1970s doesn’t automatically make the newer one better.
F-15, today, is STILL considered on top of the food chain, with the new F-22 on top of it.
I don’t care if there were an Su-55 or a MiG-40. The Russians have failed, consecutively, constantly, and continually to create a fighter that has or will match something the United States can produce. History repeats itself too often.
Which is why I don’t see it possible that the MiG-29 (several shot down over Iraq by F-15s) or the Su-30 could be superior to the F-15… regardless of the toys or neat things they’ve got. To say “there is no competition” is ludricrous…
you’re talking about a Russian plane. Ever since WWII, the Russians (or USSR) have failed to develop good aircraft that can compete with the planes of the modern time. They bluffed a lot about how far in technology they were, scared the American military forces, and the Russians ended up sucking on their feet for it. You see it in every aircraft developed during the Cold War.
And I don’t see that changing, especially not with the F-22 about to hit mass production. How close do you think the Russians are to making something that can match or out-match the F-22? By that time, what do you think the United States will have?
The Russians have been far behind in the tech world of aviation for decades and still are. Anything they’ve built that’s impressive has been stolen/reproduced tech (made by the United States). Sure they’ve produced some nice aircraft, but none of them have been able to compete with anything yet (except poor pilots or other poor aircraft; like when 3rd world countries attacking one another).
There’s a reason 3rd world countries are using cheap and mass-produced Russian aircraft and not United States aircraft.
To that you have to see the F-15 users do not admitt air to air F-15 losses and usually never talk about what the other sides claims.
For example one F-14 and a Panavia Tornado were claimed killed by a MiG-29 in GWI, we know those aircraft were lost but the Western sources claim those aircraft were killed by SAMs and not MiG-29s.
Hmm….. Western technology vs 3rd world (often hand-me-down equipment). 3rd world claims shot down by MiG-29; yeah, I’m going to listen to their claims.
The reason people don’t listen to “the other side claims” is because if you really look at the other side, you’ve just gotta shake your head.
America has the better technology, has the better pilots, has more aircraft, and always have after WWII and all throughout the Cold War and still today.
If the MiG-29 were really that great, we’d know it. We’d hear of it. We’d be scared of it. Fact is… we’re not.
I wonder if anyone here ever thought that the Su-30 uses some obsolete, “oh we’ve got that a long time ago” tech? :rolleyes:
The only “potential enemy” America faces is herself. Everything else ought to be shamed… even the Chinese.
The F-15 is not superior to the MiG-29…
I think you are a Russian living in a dream world. Technology doesn’t define the better aircraft… the A-10 Warhog has proven that for decades.
I don’t see the MiG-29 with a 1:400 kill ratio.
After the Middle Ages it was common knowledge that the earth was no longer a disk!
In some occasions, DURING the Middle Ages people knew the earth wasn’t a disk (but a sphere). However, only the scholars kept that information, and for whatever reason, they hogged knowledge from the people and left them to skeptical conclusions (one such being that the world was laid out on the back of a giant turtle, and it was turtles all the way down into eternity).
In a real war between nations the confrontation of two aircraft on equal terms is the most unlikely scenario. And the air force that flies the less maneuvrable aircraft will not recomment its pilots to enforce such engagements. And Indian pilots are surely considered more “well-picked” than American, just given the number of people per fighter.
Lol. That wasn’t the point. The point is, you can’t really determine what aircraft is overly superior in this situation… only the pilots. Even then, skill can override a poor aircraft.
These “this aircraft is better!” arguments are really cute. Ah…. its my car racing research all over again! Good times. Good information.
I’ve taken a look at a map that features who’s using the Su-30 Flankers (did I see Mexico correct?) and quite frankly, I’m not surpirsed. Why did I bring this up?
Because its often not what’s being flown, but who’s flying. I’m thoroughly convinced after reading everyone and personal inspection of both aircraft that these two would be formidable foes for each other in differing conditions; which would then depend on the pilot.
Take an (no offense) Indi pilot versing off an American pilot for example. The American pilot has probably received modern training, was picked out of America’s top college/high school students (minimum of A’s and B’s required, one C can do you in), and endured a lot through the Air Force Academy.
No doubt, the Indi pilot has probably gone through something much similiar, but I still cannot see any country (aside from perhaps the RAF or the Israeli Air Force) deploying pilots more well-trained or better equiped than the United States.
This doesn’t mean the Indi pilot could be a genious at aviation, versing off the skills of an American pilot.
The idea of any dogfight is to use the strengths of your aircraft against the weaknesses of the other. If the F-16 pilot did his studies, he should know the in’s and out’s of the Flanker he’s coming up against, and all its capable of. So its more of a battle of wits than it is a show of who’s got the better aircraft.
…. come on, don’t tell me you didn’t know that.
I have odd feelings against some of what you said, but I see what you’re saying.
Kinda like the Ak-47, eh? Not very accurate, but are quite powerful, cheap, and you see ’em EVERYWHERE. Yeah its an anicent machinegun, but it dukes out with the M-16 and even the M-4 quite nicely developed years later. I actually don’t know personally which I’d rather be armed with (AK-47 vs M-16). Some mercinaries prefer the AK-47 (or better yet, the AK-74) over NATO weapons such as the Uzi, P-90, or M-16; frankly, I don’t blame them.
So… what’s Phantom’s problem?
Well, the F-22 is the first 5th generation aircraft. It’s got to be the underlaying ground for all that follows, all the dogfights following, and quite possibly, the thing that our 3rd world country enemies will get their hands on by the time unmanned aircraft come out. (I haven’t seen “Countdown”, but I’d really, really liked to.)
The “dogfight” between MiG-23 and Phantom II (wow, that’d be a site to see the two in those aircraft trying to shoot one another down) wound me up lost. What’s the main points?
Let’s get this into an organized debate.
MiG-23, state (in single sentences) the overall points you’re trying to make. Then state what you see Phantom II is saying, and then say why Phantom is wrong. Vice versa. This way, we can stop, restart, and possibly find some misunderstandings (if any).
How much is an F-22? How much is an F-15?
There, the F-15 is cheaper, so it is better in at least one respect. 😎
That’s the reason I don’t like the idea of the Air Force going all F-22s, and F-35s.
But are you trying to say that the F-22 isn’t better than the F-15 in a dogfight? Because typically when one is trying to compare two air superiority aircraft, one usually thinks of the two dogfighting.
Quite possibly..considering the impact air combat had on the outcome of World War I.😀
— Another good idea, but this is for the Top Ten Modern Aircraft. We’ve developed a lot since the bi-plane. :p
According to offical numbers Israel lost 3 airplanes in 1982, an A-4, an F-4 and an IAI Kfir and lost two AH-1s, however it shot down close to 80 Syrian MiGs and Sukhois (around 44 MiG-21s, 16 MiG-23BNs, 10 MiG-23MF/MS and 8 Su-22s).
— GEEZ! I knew the Israeli Air Force was good, but EIGHTY? Wait… weren’t most of those planes shot on the ground?
Very very simply.
Would you not expect a Boeing 777 to perform better than a Boeing 727?
How old is the F-15 and how old is the F-22?
The F-22 has not downed any of its same gen fighters in real combat, hell, its same gen fighters do not yet exist in my opinion.
You are not comparing like with like when you compare the F-22 to the F-15. When the PAK-FA (eventually) does come along, compare the F-22 to that, and see if it has the same superiority the F-15 had over the MiG-23 and MiG-25.
That still doesn’t make any sense!
If the F-22 takes down five F-15s, duh, of course its better! Hmm… F-15 dominates the air. So, if the F-22 dominates the F-15, then it might not dominate the air? Please re-write that word-for-word and tell me that makes sense.
But I think the F-15 will keep some advantages, which are now considered less important.
How can you morons sit here and say things like that?
When THIRTY-THREE (33 for some of you who might not be able to read that) THIRTY-THREE F-15s go up against EIGHT (8) F-22s, guess who won?
F-22s – no casualties.
F-15s – no target lock. No siting of the F-22 on radar. No dogfight. No missiles launched. No machineguns fired.
I’m not saying, “Guess who WOULD win” I’m saying, “guess who WON.” These are STATISTICS, not my fantasies.
In a REAL test exercise, F-22 pilots (five of them) got into their F-15s (they were F-15 pilots beforehand). They wanted to out-trick or outdo the F-22 because they knew what it was capable of. Their mission was to take out the F-22 and give it no mercy.
One of those F-15 pilots was gunned down and said, “The first time I saw the F-22 was when it flew over my canopy.” — He didn’t even see it on his radar.
When I saw that, the F-22 suddenly became an impossible feat to me. What aircraft on planet earth can fly right over your radar and not be seen?
In the end, the F-15s were all shot down, and it wasn’t even a real dogfight.
I’m wondering how any topic can last more than 5 posts with the title “F-22 vs MiG-29”, especially on The Avaiation Forum. I’m wondering how anyone could even post such a title.
Simply,
How can you say that the F-22 is better than the F-15 only in theory? It already shot down five F-15s without them knowing it was there. These were F-22 pilots trying to cheat the F-22 too. They couldn’t do it.
One F-15 pilot said he didn’t even see the F-22 until it fly over his canopy. He looked at his radar….. he could see the F-22 with his eyes, but it was as if nothing was there on his radar. A time ago, of course, machinegun fire took him down.
There is also the 8 vs 33, same results. None of the F-15s even saw the F-22s, much less, got a target lock. In fact, the F-15s didn’t even dogfight at all, and launched chaffs and flares (no missiles).
That might be in controlled training, but come on, the F-15s (undoubtedly some of the most superior aircraft of dogfighting) pilots say its an unfair match!!!
1. An Apache? Great helicopter, no doubt, but it can’t take the punishment or fly as fast as aircraft, simple as that.
2. Anyone’s idea of “more modern” or “bigger threats” etc., etc., is really invalid.
As I’ve said somewhere else, in reply of someone’s saying, “potential growing threats”, I said, “You mean like, North Korea, China, and Iran?” None of our ‘enemies’ are really getting more sophisticated nor a great deal ahead in technology.
Yes, we’ve lost A-10s, but your wording there is almost singular (an A-10).
As for an AA missile being able to destroy a tank, yes, with a superb direct hit. Its rare that a missile is going to get that against a target, even if its moving slow. AA missiles use shrapenel, not kenetic energy or explosives, to destory targets. Why? All the targets are pretty flimsy, and trying for direct hit missiles is terribly expensive.
The sometimes senseless bombing in Iraq showed, that there is always a lack of intelligence. The bombing capabilities had outpaced the recce and verification capabilities by a big margin. All that against a well-known enemy with little capabilities left.
— That’s an interesting point. In the first Gulf War, 49% of the bombing was laser/radar/opticial guided. In the second, however, that upped to closer to 70-80% (don’t remember what that number was, but it was much better than 49%.)
You must have just returned from the model shop. The artwork showing A-10s carrying lots of stuff isn’t all that accurate unless it is very very close to home base.

Those are nice models from the shop. 🙂
Hardpoints: 8× under-wing + 3× under-fuselage pylon stations = 11. I got that information from my love of research, not screaming out like a maniac because I love the plane.
A nice non sequitur but that is about it. Mission up times for the other fast movers have been more than good enough in the desert. They have only had 30 years to figure that out with the teen fighters.
— You talk to the soliders out there on a regular basis? From what I hear, the military-issued 9milis are a pitiful pain-in-the-@$$. The M-16 (from men in Vietnam and around the world I’ve talked with) is also pitiful. Some of them said they preferred to have a .45 Colt pistol rather than an M-16 any day. But let us not ask the soldiers… they don’t know anything. There’s a reason our men and women in the military don’t watch CNN.
You believe 6 AIM120s, 2 AIM-9M, and 480 rds of 20mm will not take down an A-10?
— Yup. I know what its armed with, don’t tell me (its common information, right?).
Firstly, you can discard the 20mm machinegun. I’m pretty sure that’s worthless and the pilot wouldn’t use it anyway (simple training says stay as far away as possible, I thought it was more of a last resort weapon).
Secondly, as I’ve said before, unless you get enough direct hits (or near direct hits) overriding its chaffs/flares, you’re not taking it down that easily. Remember, it was DESIGNED to get shot the hell out of, that’s what the A-10 is all about: becoming a target, getting shot at.
And they will be supported by the likes of fast mover high altitude legacy aircraft and someday the JSF. Supported very well.
Compare the price of the F-35 and the A-10. Also, if I were a soldier, I’d rather have an A-10 that is willing to fly so low, the pilot can see me than a F-35 trying to drop bombs over 10,000ft at near supersonic speeds.
That’s why our military keeps holding onto the A-10.
“Oh, but we’ve got all this equipment like optical sighting, etc.” Yes, at a terribly expensive cost. As for not having night vision capabilities, we’ve got aircraft to do that job and a night sky for cover.
Other aircraft can avoid this and still accomplish the mission. There is no comparison to the A-10 and other fast movers when other aircraft can accomplish most of the mission sets that previously before cheap PGMs the A-10 had a greater mission set that belonged only to it. No more. The P.E. package will help, but still won’t save it from something like a Tor 1, or a few other threats for that matter.
— Why do you think we still have them? Why do you think we haven’t gotten rid of them yet, and why do you think the military likes ’em so much? Because an aircraft flying at 15,000ft and at near supersonic speeds isn’t as good as flying treetop level and almost as slow as a helicopter.
I’m also talking in broad daylight where the enemy can see. You wouldn’t dare send an expensive JSF on CAS missions in broad daylight when the ground is full of enemies.
Also, do this with those JSF (crash land that much intact)…
Even the flight manual said that type of landing was impossible (wheels up, hard stick landing), but here it is, done.
consider this….a relatively small missile like the Maverick (AGM-65) series can knock out any tank…including 70+ ton monsters. An A-10 is no tank, regardless of how much titanium you say it has. Sure, you may say the warhead is different…but flying that slow lot’s of things will be hurled at you regardless of their design targets of choice.
90% of those Mavericks launched in the Gulf War were from A-10s. Just a weird FYI. Also, out of 8100 sortie missions, the A-10 had a 95.7 success rate. That’s pretty good considering that war lasted less than 3 months.
**Oh yeah, checked my references I read a while back while studying the AMRAAM and found a few ” > ” 😀 . Glad that wasn’t caught on my paper.**
Oh yeah.
This crap dilutes an otherwise very interesting debate no?
Try shooting down an airplane with 900lbs of titanium steel around the pilot that can fly with 1 wing, land without ‘gear, and your machinegun ammunition BOUNCES OFF the aircraft.
Who said the A-10 had to destroy the F-22?