To clarify the numbers, the F-35 can simultaneously have over 100 SA “Situational Awareness” target tracks, 8 A2A weapon quality tracks, and 16 A2G weapon quality tracks.
As far as when it would use them… I could think of several. But most likely is a forward F-35 acting as designator for weapons launched from other AC.
I understand all this. It’s theoretical capability with a use of tactic and if all goes well. To me, it’s a bit like EADS which claims that with a tactic, it’s “F35 hunter” as they said. From theory to practice is the bottom line. A tactic may work or may not because the other has devised the answer to it. I can too say that theoretically, with a 100 round magazine on a machine gun, i can kill 20 enemy troops with submachine guns. But this isn’t guaranteed… If i claimed that i can fight 100 men, people would laugh at me. I may end up dead after killing just 2 because my tactic didn’t work. Just as the 8 “quality tracks”, mean nothing if you don’t carry 8 missiles aboard… It’s like the Mirage. It can “threaten” all tracked targets without them knowing if it has launched, but in reality, its real lethality – assuming it survives enemy fire- is limited on the number of missiles and successful shots.
The scout tactic may have been a revolution for non linked aircrafts, but as soon as aircrafts used links, became known. I also may sound a heretic, but i think that actually the F35 is better for home defence, because its enemies will probably be outside their own GCI network or maybe even AWACS cover. This would be more to the benefit of the F35 against Typhoon like fighters.
Also, i have repeated, people overlook the IFF limits. Most accounts from both Serbia and Iraq, shows BVR shots most often between 15-25km. Because despite the NADGE radars from Italy and AWACS, ID was difficult. IRST will help in that, but again, if you see a dot on the IRST at 50 nm, i doubt you can tell what it is. In peacetime or in exercizes, things are much “cleaner”, since all aircrafts have their transponder on. In HAF’s tactical screens, where they gather tracks from various sources and then merged, you think it is a videogame. HAF aircrafts are blue, any non HAF is “red” (no surprise, i know) and civillian are non coloured (grey), to avoid any mistake or accident… This happens even at turkish traces that fly inside Turkey. In real war, both sides will shut down transponders and traffic controllers will have a very tough job to follow everything and know who is who.
Which is what has happened to USAF pilots over Serbia and Iraq too.
Anyway, i am eager for the F35 to come out in RAF and Italian airforce and see what they will say about it. Because just like i don’t believe the “F35 hunter” claims from EADS, i also can’t believe these LM claims that make the F22 seem utterly useless. In Greece there’s a proverb: “Where you hear there are a lot of cherries, bring also a small basket with you”. I am also even more eager about the final price and more important, maintenance costs, because in greek fora there is still this rumour going on about need to send everything to Italy for “stealth caring”. If it’s economic, maybe HAF should buy it after 2020 (because seems that in 2013 they will put us in a new bail out plan… and later to debt restructuring, meaning no new fighter).
An F-35 does not enter the fight alone. The F-35 who paints the targets with its APG-81 is not the one who will be launching AIM-120s. That will be his three mates who are unseen and launch silently using targeting data passed to them from the first via MADL. This is the method F-22s have used to achieve lopsided scores in exercises against F-15s, F-16s and F-18s.
Ah, so it’s not 1 fighting at least 8, but 4 fighting at least 8. That’s more like it.
Dear sir,
If 4 of your buddies blow up from amraam hits I trust that you are not gonna stay on the same track.
No, i guess me and my other 2 buddies will spread to sweep with IRST and radar to see what we can pick. And i suppose we will lose the F35 sneaking behind. Of course in a MAWS equiped aircraft, i guess we will have an approximate bearing of where the missile was shot from.
Here is how the Raptor does it
The F-22 is proving it’s a dogfighter after all.
While it wasn’t part of a hard-turning furball, an F-22–with its Amraams and Sidewinders expended–slipped into visual range behind an F-16 and undetected made a simulated kill with its cannon during the stealth fighter’s first large-scale exercise and deployment outside the continental U.S.
Those and other revelations about the F-22’s emerging capabilities are increasingly important as the first combat unit, the U.S. Air Force’s 27th Fighter Sqdn., begins its initial Air Expeditionary Force deployment this month to an undisclosed site. And the first F-22 unit, the 94th Fighter Sqdn., will participate in Red Flag in February.
The gun kill is a capability Air Force planners hope their F-22s won’t use. The fighter is designed to destroy a foe well beyond his visual and radar range. Within visual-range combat and, in particular, gun kills are anachronisms. In amassing 144 kills to no losses during the first week of the joint-service Northern Edge exercise in Alaska last summer, only three air-to-air “kills” were in the visual arena–two involving AIM-9 Sidewinders and one the F-22’s cannon
Oh, if the F22 did that against a F16, then i guess the F35 will do it against the 8 enemy planes. Ok.
Have i ever showed you the picture of the MirageF1 gun killing a TuAF F16? Imagine what our F16s will do with their guns… 😀
Even with external AAMs, the F-35 is still stealthier than the Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen/Super Hornet/Su-35.
Yes, assuming that, this is relative. This isn’t a competition of stealthiness. It’s whether at ID range , one can react to the other. If the 8 Typhoons (with EADS tactic), manage to ID the F35 as hostile and pick it on their sensors, little difference will make if it was stealthier. The important thing is whether it will avoid reply fire or not. If it manages to kill the 8 Typhoons before they know what hit them, then that’s the point.
But, as i have said other times, i don’t believe in Amraam shots at max range. This may happen in excercizes, it has been proven that doesn’t happen in real combat, when fratricide has to be avoided and pilots seek good shots trying not to waste missiles in marginal shots. This works against stealth. One thing is to pick someone first on your radar. Another thing is to be sure who you are shooting at. And yet another, is to be sure, that while you guide your missile on your enemy, the enemy won’t pick you on his turn and fire back. These are the crucual points that are still unanswered in the stealth vs legacy fighter.
Dear sir,
Its simple after the 1st group is dead from a amraam shot the F-35 can either contempt of engage or try and sneak onto there rear for a gun shot. if you cant see the F-35 it will be difficult to point your nose and get a radar signal on it.
Dear sir,
The 1st group of 6 is dead from the 100% kill ratio of 6 Amraaams, right? If the F35 prefers not to engage further, how is it going to fight the next 2? By not fighting them?
You mean that the F35 will manage to pass undetected from the 2 other aircrafts and go to 6 o’clock and gun kill them? It’s true, i hadn’t thought of it. I hope it’s really stealth, because unless they keep flying on a tight pair on a straight line like morons, i think the F35 will have a bit difficulty to avoid being detected to come close enough to gun kill them while they are unaware. I ‘d think they ‘d be sweeping the largest sector of sky possible. But i ‘ve seen once a film with Clint Eastwood called “Firefox” with some pretty amazing things, so maybe it can be done too.
The F-35 can carry 10 external AAMs in addition to those internally carried.
So in theory, it could fire 2 missiles at 7 to 8 targets. Or depending on the number of JDRADM carried internally(perhaps 8 or more), 1ea at 8 targets, with internal only.
Yes, i have thought about that, but i prefered to overlook that as quite futile scenario. With 10 external AAMs, it is “goodbye stealth” and at this point, it’s everybody’s game. Even the F4 may actually shoot at BVR an F35 with 10 external AAMs.
The important isn’t to just say “my aircrafts can carry 10 missiles, so i can fight with 10 enemies”. It’s important to see if you will get alive out of it. Otherwise it’s pure theory. In theory, a Su-34 can carry 12 A-A missiles, thus fighting against 12 F35s at 35 mln $ per unit…
The F-35 is amazing in action: Able to simultaneously fight at least eight enemy planes, and, at the same time, lock-on to as many as 16 enemy ground targets.
This is why i can’t wait for the countries that will get both EF and F35 to finally come out with some internal evaluations and see where the marketing PR stops and reality begins.
How is the F35 able to simultaneously fight at least 8 enemy planes?
Assuming 100% kill rate for the 6 AMRAAMs shot one against each opponent, how is it going to kill the at least 2 more enemy aircrafts? With 2 additional AIM-9X with again 100% kill rate? In that case i have my doubts about its ability to maintain stealth long enough to come into AIM-9X range without taking enemy shots. With guns? Somehow i don’t believe that 1 F-35 with guns will shoot down 2 enemy aircrafts that will probably be carrying missiles. Unless the enemy aircrafts are F4s and even then it will have to really be quick before the 2nd one come at its 6 o’clock.
If we take the “at least” literally and start thinking about… 10 aircrafts, i must really strain my imagination to imagine how this will happen.
How do you provide targeting data for Storm Shadows if the EF cannot get close enough to use its sensors without becoming a SAM magnet?
The solution would be to send stealthy F-35s ahead to identify targets and data link target coordinates to EFs who stay safely out of the SAM’s reach.
I can help in this. Actually the Storm Shadow is programmed on ground before flight, with input from satellite imagery. The computer simply then follows the programmed flight path and a bit before arrival tries to ID the target automatically with the targey image and coordinates fed from the satelite imagery. Speaking from memory, but i had read an article about this for the SCALP. We ‘ve done the targeting last summer. Basically once you ‘ve done targeting they ‘re ready to launch. UAV imagery can also be used, as long as is it compatible with the program used in the missile.
The only problem i see, is that the Storm Shadow is different category weapon than the SDB. The Storm Shadow is much heavier, bigger. The targets hit by Storm Shadow are heavily fortified, fixed targets. They are unlikely to “move” in case of conflict, so you don’t need to do updated reconnaissance mission.
The SDB II on the other hand, that will be used against mobile targets too, could make use of reconaissance, but this is simply a job not cut for the Storm Shadow. The Storm Shadow is useful as bunker buster and taking out highly defended fixed facilities. Anything else, you ‘re throwing away your money or … you ‘re rich enough to afford them.
I think blowing the whistle in cases of illegal activities and attempts of cover-up etc. is one thing which is more easily justifiable. Many people seem to support the idea. Hasn’t the U.S. government tried to provide a service for this purpose?
In my opinion, handing out classified information pertaining to e.g. national security (such as lists of critical sites) is different. I fail to see what this has to do with freedom of speech.
As others have pointed out before me, a great deal of the information recently provided by WikiLeaks seems more or less trivial, old news etc. Much of it seems to be of more interest to parts of the media rather than the respective governments. Again, what do they hope to achieve with information which has nothing to do with whistleblowing?
Maybe the term whistleblowing isn’t the exact (i admit my lack in english), but i don’t come into the detail of single pieces. From the US point of view, it is of course a bad thing. From my view, it is a) good for average people to read how politics are done beyond the journalistic speculation, b) the risk of leaking may serve to mitigate some completely ruthless political decisions, since the only thing that politicians are afraid of, is political cost. A politician who is afraid that his not so moral directives may one day leak to the public, will think it twice before doing it, c) it is something that enhances transparency and judgment of the politicians by the people. For example if pubblically a politician claims one position and in leaked documents appears doing the opposite, this is something good for the voters to know.
I wish there had been a “euroleak” 1 year ago, since now it appears, that in EU summits Trichet and the Commission had warned our goverment about the deficit and also our current PM had been informed. The only one that hadn’t been informed, was… the population, that went to vote thinking that the deficit was 6% (as the gov was saying) and that “there was a lot money” as the opposition (and current PM) was saying.
Yes, apparently they pubblish pretty much everything, important or not, but i don’t really care. I think it’s good for transparency and for mitigating ruthless policies. Even the meaning of trivial may vary from person to person. In the Wikileaks for example, there were things about greek relations, which i considered trivial in the sense that i knew about them. But when i was saying these things to friends (or strangers), they were calling me “crazy”, “biased”, “paranoid”, etc. Now i simply show them the wikileak and say “see? I told you”. This is priceless. 😀
As for the motives of Mr. Assange, i don’t know. They could be honourable or they could be more selfish, like getting famous. I simply don’t care as long as the content he releases is not fake. And if we judge from the reactions, it’s not.
The US does declassify documents after many years (about 30 i think more or less), but only some and in those there are censored parts, which usually are also the most interesting. It would be great to have them uncensored.
Wikileaks has the advantage of releasing contemporary documents. I am sure the US gov will take measures to increase safety for at least the confidential files, but in meantime, i enjoy wikileaks for as long as it lasts.
I think blowing the whistle in cases of illegal activities and attempts of cover-up etc. is one thing which is more easily justifiable. Many people seem to support the idea. Hasn’t the U.S. government tried to provide a service for this purpose?
In my opinion, handing out classified information pertaining to e.g. national security (such as lists of critical sites) is different. I fail to see what this has to do with freedom of speech.
As others have pointed out before me, a great deal of the information recently provided by WikiLeaks seems more or less trivial, old news etc. Much of it seems to be of more interest to parts of the media rather than the respective governments. Again, what do they hope to achieve with information which has nothing to do with whistleblowing?
Maybe the term whistleblowing isn’t the exact (i admit my lack in english), but i don’t come into the detail of single pieces. From the US point of view, it is of course a bad thing. From my view, it is a) good for average people to read how politics are done beyond the journalistic speculation, b) the risk of leaking may serve to mitigate some completely ruthless political decisions, since the only thing that politicians are afraid of, is political cost. A politician who is afraid that his not so moral directives may one day leak to the public, will think it twice before doing it, c) it is something that enhances transparency and judgment of the politicians by the people. For example if pubblically a politician claims one position and in leaked documents appears doing the opposite, this is something good for the voters to know.
I wish there had been a “euroleak” 1 year ago, since now it appears, that in EU summits Trichet and the Commission had warned our goverment about the deficit and also our current PM had been informed. The only one that hadn’t been informed, was… the population, that went to vote thinking that the deficit was 6% (as the gov was saying) and that “there was a lot money” as the opposition (and current PM) was saying.
Yes, apparently they pubblish pretty much everything, important or not, but i don’t really care. I think it’s good for transparency and for mitigating ruthless policies. Even the meaning of trivial may vary from person to person. In the Wikileaks for example, there were things about greek relations, which i considered trivial in the sense that i knew about them. But when i was saying these things to friends (or strangers), they were calling me “crazy”, “biased”, “paranoid”, etc. Now i simply show them the wikileak and say “see? I told you”. This is priceless. 😀
As for the motives of Mr. Assange, i don’t know. They could be honourable or they could be more selfish, like getting famous. I simply don’t care as long as the content he releases is not fake. And if we judge from the reactions, it’s not.
The US does declassify documents after many years (about 30 i think more or less), but only some and in those there are censored parts, which usually are also the most interesting. It would be great to have them uncensored.
Wikileaks has the advantage of releasing contemporary documents. I am sure the US gov will take measures to increase safety for at least the confidential files, but in meantime, i enjoy wikileaks for as long as it lasts.
..
The M2000-5 cost 15-20 % more than an F-16 which comes with more complete package..Besides the comparison $2700/$3600 per hour comes obviously from Dassault ,I would therefore discount it by 50% !!
In greek newspapers, usually the Mirage appears about 2000 $ per flight hour more costly than the F16. Of course one here must consider that with the euro exchange rate, american spare parts become cheaper than before say year 2000. The unit cost was also higher for the Mirage. Of course we have more F16s than Mirage, but still, the consensus is that the F16 ends up cheaper.
Those cuts are not drastic in any way. I would have expected a far bigger axing. Like the one RAF is going through these days.
Seems HAF got away rather cheap here. Which is good news ofcourse!
Each country has different realities, different priorities and as such, different ways of replying to a problem. In Greece, there is “fat to burn” in the armed forces, which probably doesn’t exist in the british one. Also, the expenses in Britain must be different than in Greece. For example, the british army is 100% professional and wages are much higher than greek ones. In Greece big party are conscripts, which are practically free, qualified workforce, since most go to the army after finishing university and the army gets free graduates to do its job for them instead of paying dedicated professionals… Also the wages for the professionist soldiers is much lower. The officers are those who are more well paid.
But,
1) The article isn’t an official anouncement. The journalist also writes for military magazines and as such is more trustworthy than your average journalist of political newspapers, but still, this isn’t an official anouncement. I do hope it’s accurate.
In Greece the importance of Airforce and Navy is obvious. Just look at the potential battleground. An archipelago. They are also better trainned than the Army, so i sure hope they are the last to be axed. The land border is narrow, especially in the part that is more important to the politicians, that is, the southern part, which leads to the rest of Greece and is stacked with the best hardware, so theoretically, the Army is the least important. HAF and the Navy have much more job to do running around in a wide area.
2) The main “axing” as leaked and expected, will be on the Army. There is talk about reduction of personnel to 73.000 and reserves to 220.000. One Army corpse in continental Greece, remnant of the cold war is said to be cancelled and partially merged with units near the borders. Then in Greece there are about 800 military camps/warehouses (again, remnants of cold war), which will be reduced by merging units. The goverments were keeping them, because the conscripts were leaving money to the local communities… There is talk about reform on the unit structure with less divisions and Brigades in favour of smaller more mobile units, this will also lead to reduction of the number of higher ranking officers who get the higher wages. And then of course there will be retirement of older material, such as towed howitzers (who are considered not viable in today’s battlefield anyway), older tanks to reduce the number of tanks, etc.
The main idea is to move the troops and better material more towards the eastern border, retire and close the rest.
All this is a matter of negotiations between officers and the MoD, because they aren’t very happy about all of this. From rumours the situation for the Navy will be a bit worse than for HAF, but better than in the Army. There will be reduction of the ceiling in ships’ numbers.
With a PM that even before the crisis, as i had written also here, was saying that “we are over-armed, we must not buy anything new, but have a small army for… assimetrical warfare”, if things stay as they are rumoured, i think we ‘re really lucky.
As for the future development of HAF’s main opponent…….
If HAF intends to be anybody’s opponent in the future, we must do debt restructuring and restructuring of the political system. Unfortunately, the fate of Greece is now to be decided politically. Economically, the numbers don’t add up. For sure, the original plan of “Greece reduces the deficit from 15% to 3% in 3 years and then with debt at 160% goes out in the markets and sells happily her bonds again”, is a fairytale that nobody in Greece believes. Now there is talk about… prolongation of the payments with higher interest. This postpones but doesn’t solve the problem, the markets won’t bite so easily and will be scared to buy bonds with the new “privates must pay in case of default” clause that Mrs. Merkel brings. Probably they will put us in yet another “bail out plan” , during which more of the greek debt from unwarranted will be transformed into state loans with warrancies. As a foreign analyst said, it’s like borrowing money from the Mafia to pay a loan you took from your grandmother (because the greek bonds have no state warrancy and eventual juridical dispute must be judged in greek courts – the grandmother-, unlike foreign state loans, which are to be judged in british courts – the Mafia-). At the end, a “bail out”, is supposed to save you, not dig your grave deeper…
If we don’t do some debt restructuring, i fear that this is only the beginning of the end for all the greek armed forces, which will find “death by multiple wounds”. Cutting a bit year after year, until there’s nothing left to cut.
Maybe the greek politicians want to pass into history as the next “Marie Antoinnette” during the greek revolution , but, unless they convince the population that their plan leads to an exit and doesn’t simply delay the inevitable, while worsening the terms of the inevitable to save foreign banks, i fear that the main opponent of HAF won’t be TuAF, but the learjets of the politicians trying to flee to Brussels. After all, the PM has vetoed HAF to go close to TuAF aircrafts and instead stay in BVR. So HAF has more free time than before. :diablo:
Besides, if we don’t do debt restructing, i won’t ever see Gripen NG in HAF! 😀 Even if we pass to primary surplus in the budget after a successful program, with a debt at 160%, even with a 3% growth, all the surplus will be going to pay interests of the debt for the next 15 years or so, after which we will be with debt at 120%. So no Gripen NG… The absurd is that our PM, the IMF and EU representatives in Greece as well as Mrs Merkel, insist that Greece won’t do debt restructuring. And the population doesn’t believe them (rightfully). It is obvious that a) nobody wants Greece to default, because the banks are weak and because there are other countries wavering, but b) they haven’t figured out yet how they will manage this politically, but at the same time they expect the greek population to believe something that clearly at least the markets (who are supposed to start buying greek bonds again) don’t believe, because the numbers are very high.
Anyway, Greece has lost the train, Turkey deserves congratulations. Unlike our morons, who allowed the unconditional entrance of Turkey in the EU accession talks, which gave a 300% boost in Istanbul stockmarket helping her come out of her 2001 crisis, Turkey plays it by the book. When you see your opponent weak, step on the acccelerator in the arms race, widen the gap before he recovers. Hats off to Turkey. Textbook strategy. “How to win a war without firing a shot”.
According to greek newspaper (link in greek) who claims info from exclusive interview with HAF’s chief, the expenditure reduction program for HAF includes:
– Gradual retirement of the RF-4E from 2011. Only a handful will remain with ASTAC pods, the rest will be stripped for spare parts and retired. The F4E AUP are not affected.
– A7Es will be retired around 2015, while TA-7C will stay for a bit longer as trainners and refuellers with buddy-buddy method.
– In 116 Combat Wing, the 335 Squadron, operating 30 F16 Block52+ Adv, will give half its aircrafts for the formation of a new squadron.
– There is reference to a shutdown of some lesser bases (usually these are forward bases that host readyness aircrafts), but with no details.
** Although this is isn’t HAF, but Army Aviation, finally after all the delays, the NH90 are close to their arrival in Greece, as the first greek crew is in France for trainning. Deliveries are expected to start in March 2011 and will finish in 2014-15. 16 are TTH and 4 SOH configuration.


(photos from onalert.gr)
I hope that someone with a minimum of imagination and good taste will break the army aviation tradition and paint them with a decent camouflage theme just for a change.
I am sure that even if the sex charges don’t stick on Assange, they will find something else. He must be punished to make an example out of him.
Otherwise, whistleblowers from all countries will start doing the same.
By the way, a new aspiring site has come up. Maybe soon we will have our “euroleaks”. 😀
God bless the whistleblowers.
I am sure that even if the sex charges don’t stick on Assange, they will find something else. He must be punished to make an example out of him.
Otherwise, whistleblowers from all countries will start doing the same.
By the way, a new aspiring site has come up. Maybe soon we will have our “euroleaks”. 😀
God bless the whistleblowers.