Please stop that nonsense about the more expensive weapons.

Meteor is more expensive for good reason and I doubt you can expect aim 120D for much less if at all. Mica IR is unique in the west;

Beyond that, technology transfer means brazil can integrate R-darter or a-darter, and whatever variety of local made a to g weapons. Even old peruvian Mirage 2000 could use israeli LGBs for instance.

Nic

Brazil and India, exactly because they have advanced local industry capabilities and will also “buy” the tech-transfer, have more options. But for most other countries of the world, buying means “buying what’s ready”. For example the Swiss would use what’s readily available. Integrating a new weapon, when possible, only means additional cost.

The Americans, deliver you the aircraft and you know, that it will be able to use immediately a big variety of weapons.

You ‘re right about A-A missiles, most of the difference is in the A-G ammunition.

you my friend, are right as always (98%) of the time!
I personally think the Eurocanards have more potential but the F-16, can do most of the same jobs at the same levels as them. Has much lower operating costs than the Typhoid and Raffie, and close to the Gripen’s cost. Has a wide range of weapons already integrated. Has many 3rd party upgrade options (like Israeli sourced) available. Already has working AESA and full A2G modes available.

Well, i am not the Pope, so i don’t claim infallibility. The percentage you give is already too kind on your part 😮

Yes, i too agree, that in general the Rafale and Typhoon are better than F16. Specially in A-A and in high risk A-G missions. But, how many countries actually need this extra performance gap? Few… And how many countries will have to go to strike missions against targets protected by excellent SAM coverage? Again, only a few. Then how many countries will actually build them locally so that they can squeeze the construction costs? Only a few. The rest need to buy directly from EADS or Dassault. With the euro being temporarily around 1,32 dollars (and this is actually a “low” for the euro) and both being already more expensive than F16s, how can you expect to export? The Arabs have the oil, they can afford anything, fine. But what next?

The Eurocanards are somewhat affordable for euro-area customers. But, the problem is, 1) most euro-area countries don’t face any threat that needs Typhoon or Rafale ,2) the dollar falling, makes american even cheaper.

The Eurocanards superiority vis-a-vis F-16 Block 60 for instance is only marginal.. Besides, the VIPER is hugely combat proven and as a result of ecomomies of scale much cheaper to produce ( 4700 left assembly lines which makes it second more successful after F-4 ) and spare parts easily available..

I think that eurocanards as platforms are superior as platforms. But, to add to what i wrote to J-7, i see it like this: The F16 is like a less powerful computer, but cheaper and with a wide variety of programs available. The Eurocanards, are more powerful , but with more restrictive choice of programs. At the end, how many people really NEED the most powerful computer in the market, with costly programs, while they have the option to get something less powerful, but that will give them more programs to run?

Where programs= weapons. You can buy wide variety of ammunition for the F16 at low, medium or high price. If a mission doesn’t require particular risks, why use something expensive? The Eurocanards are much more limited to the choice of weapons. You get for example the Rafale. I trully believe that it’s better aircraft. But you want to go to war. You have AASM, Paveway (not all models i think) and SCALP? AASM and SCALP are excellent. But they are also expensive. When i look to the greek ammunition inventory as pubblished on magazines, i see a long list of all kind of ammunition for F16s, old and new, which give plenty of choice to pick the more cost-effective for every sortie. France may have the money to go to war and shoot AASM and SCALPs like rain. Many other countries though, don’t have the money to afford such a war. Or at least, not for long period of time.

Spare parts are also another traditional advantage of US aircrafts. Since they are ordered in big numbers, even after the production line closes, the US usually has a huge stock of spares, available at low price. That’s how we still fly A-7s… With other aircrafts, at some point, due to the small remaining stock of spares, spare prices become high enough to “encourage” you to retire the aircraft.

On the other side, if Europe wants to have a credible airforce industry, the Typhoon and Rafale must survive and proceed in the future to upgrade programs, so that it won’t lag behind in technology know-how. The problem is, this becomes more difficult without many exports. The AESA for the Typhoon for example, has seen much delay, because none of the consorcium parties was willing to fund the production.

Looks like a Raptor with fat ar$e. 😀

Now we will have yet another contender in the X vs Y threads. The speculation about its performance, the news leaks, whether the F35s will be enough for it and so on, for a wonderful new year in this forum. 😀

What is this supposed to be? Bulgaria and Greece are both members of NATO and EU and are in very good relations.

Yes, but J-7 Hotdog insists that in reality Bulgaria is plotting against Greece. After several attempts to explain, i treat it as a joke. Play along, it’s actually entertaining. 😀

Turkey is also a Nato member!

That’s true, but with Bulgaria we are also in the same EU battlegroup and now there is also this:

Bulgaria, Greece Strike 1st Balkan Air Policing Deal
Defense | November 1, 2010, Monday

The Defense Ministers of Bulgaria and Greece have signed the first ever bilateral agreement under NATO’s Air Policing program in the Balkans.

“The borders of our trust and understanding are where we place them,” Bulgaria’s Defense Minister Anyu Angelov stated at a joint news conference with his Greek counterpart Evangelos Venizelos in Athens Monday as cited by the Defense Ministry press office.

“The agreement we signed is not just the first bilateral agreement under NATO’s Air Policing for Bulgaria and Greece, it is also the first for the Balkans. Our countries will now help one another with air operations about terrorist threats from the air and about safety of air travel. But I am convinced that the defense cooperation between Bulgaria and Greece is yet to deepen because the open and honest relations provide for open doors and open minds,” Gen. Angelov said.

Under the NATO Air Policing deal signed Monday between Bulgaria and Greece in Athens, the designated aircraft of the two nations will be able to enter the air space of one another in case of a threat as stipulated by the respective procedures.

Under NATO’s Air Policing program, NATO members jointly and collectively conduct air policing to preserve the integrity of NATO airspace. Air policing encompasses radar surveillance and identification of air objects.

When required, fighter aircraft may be employed to assist in identification, or to assist/escort aircraft.

NATO members without the necessary national assets to conduct air policing are assisted by other NATO members to ensure that air sovereignty is maintained.

NATO Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR) is responsible for the conduct of NATO air policing.

During his visit to Athens on Monday, Bulgaria’s Defense Minister Angelov was also welcomed by Greek President Karolos Papoulias.

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=121740

Which you won’t see happening between Greecen and Turkey anytime soon. Our PM, is an appeasement lover and took advantage of the economic crisis to order HAF to do BVR only interception after the turkish plot about provoking HAF into shooting down a TuaF aircraft was pubblished, but that’s as far as it can go.

Besides, the turkish current foreign policy, is a faithful execution of the turkish FM’s book-dogma. If you read it, i am sure you will understand, that Bulgaria won’t like its contents either. You think it was annoying for China when Turkey trying to influence domestic chinese affairs with the Uyghurs? For the Balkans, the turkish policy as written in the book, is the use of islam and minorities to bring all the region under turkish influence, together with pursuing an internationally approved framework, that would legitimize turkish intervention all over this region, in the way that happened in Cyprus, which is described in the book as “successful example to imitate”. I am sure Bulgarian politicians have read the book too… Already, Turkey builds for free turkish schools and universities in balkan countries where there is high muslim concentration. You think they do it out of accademic love for spreading the turkish language? I am sure the turkish tax payer could make use of this money for his own wallet.

The thing is I am not too sure whether these Mirage 2000s will be used for air dominance. I think they’ll pick up more & more air to ground work as well, if the news that the remaining MiG-27s are being retired is correct.

Basically, these aircraft will be used for every conceivable mission, and their strategic role (as part of India’s triad) will be further enhanced thanks to the modernization. What we are seeing is a substantial portion of the IAF fleet becoming multirole (MiG-29 Upgrade) or getting more capabilities (Mirage 2000 upgrade) and a substantial portion of the strike fleet being made all weather strike capable (Jaguar IS upgrade with Elta FCR) and substantial survivability upgrades to the rest.

Yes, it’s understandable, since IAF already uses the Mirage also in A-G. Still, you will have to buy missiles for self-protection. And MICA is pretty much obligatory choice. At this point, why not buy both versions… I have a vague memory that the Mirage2000-5mk2 can’t even use Super530D or Magic2.

Do they have (block 50/52) MAWS.

AFAIK, our F16s (both the 52+ and the “Adv” of the 2nd batch) don’t have MAWS. But it could be that PAF ordered it… Usually LM allows a certain “customization” of the F16 in the sector of self protection suites (for example, none of the turkish and greek F16s have the same suite). So it depends on what you order.

EDIT : Found an article on the greek suite and mentions no MAWS in deed.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article889.html

Have You learned nothing on current events.
How many more deals have both Rafale and Typhoon secured lately?

They are both way overpriced, thats the real problem, not their capabilities.. well Typhoon should get better A2G capabilities.

But if you think it will help their exports by further price hikes(5gen upgrade), you are very much mistaken..
It will only make them less desireble.
Who on earth would want them at 100mil$?
India? Think otherwise, they have the PAK-FA going.
Who else?

I have to agree in general. India or Brazil may at the end opt for a eurocanard, but just in a bigger scheme of things, to get ToT.

But, in a wider market, they are both very expensive. If you look at the F16, a very successful exporter, it did well in both poor and rich countries, because (politics aside) it was 1) affordable as per unit price, 2) affordable at life cycle costs, 3) with affordable ordnance. And LM offers also affordable upgrade packages.

You get F16? You can do cheaply pretty much any kind of mission. And even if you don’t have the money to buy expensive ammunition, you can start with something more economic in the A-G sector and then, in a second moment you can order more expensive ordnance.

The 2 european fighters, lack in one or more of the sectors mentioned above. Even the Rafale, which is probably more “multi-role ready”, has expensive ordnance.

Part of the problem of course, is the euro-dollar exchange rate. USA is printing new money, EU isn’t. If it wasn’t for the debt crisis of Greece and Ireland, the euro would now be considerably higher to the dollar. But then the price of MICA and AASM would be even more outrageous compared to US counterparts…

Before the crisis, for political reasons, i think Greece could have bought Typhoon. Now, even if we get out of the acute phase of the crisis (with debt prolongation and/or restructuring on the horizon coming up next), i hope that our politicians won’t do that mistake.

Like you say “who else”? These are “heavyweight” and “heavywallet” if you pardon the word, aircrafts, that only countries with their own private “cold war” could consider, outside the Arabs of course. The other countries around the world, most of the time want just something for air policing of their borders, for which, there are much cheaper options around.

Actually, maybe the future of the eurocanards will change for the best, if LM closes all F16 production lines and F35 proves to be much more costly than initially planned. But then again, maybe this will benefit the Gripen even more…