Tejas MK2 for Greece provided they do not have the money to buy Gripen NG.

Well i always say that one never lost anything from trying… I ‘d send a HAF committee to fly the plane. Realistically speaking though, unless greek politicians do something to boost relations with India, i don’t see them doing anything. And the main problem is the political bankruptcy in Greece. The political system is bankrupt. The economic bankruptcy is the easiest part to overcome. Most countries have gone bankrupt more times in their history, we have too, it’s not the end of the world. But it’s the political and ideological bankruptcy that’s the worst one. You could give to the greek politicians Darth Vader’s Death Star. They would still change nothing in their policy. Ι mentioned that everyone is searching or already drilling for oil or gas. Turks, Cypriots, Israelis, Albanians, Lybians, Egyptians, Italians. In Greece, it took a 2nd tv transmission in a year, where a 2nd batch of scientists went to complain about strong indications of natural gas in 3 areas that Greece can claim to push the minister of energy to come out and … “promice” to make an organism for the research of natural resources, which was closed for “mysterious” reasons in the past. According to 2 scientists, if their calculations are correct, Greece could be in from 3 to 6 trillion metric cubes of gas, which are enough to pay the entire greek debt and have 150 bln surplus. And since the goverment has been shutting them down for years, they have to go on TV to force the minister to re-open the organism where even in Libya is searching. Everyone knows it, only the greek goverments don’t want to do anything about it.

the recent deepwater Lower Miocene Tamar and Dalit discoveries and exploration wells drilled in the shallow water and onshore areas of Israel and Gaza have already proved the presence of a working hydrocarbon system in both the Herodotus and the Levantine Basin.
http://www.neftegaz.ru/en/news/view/93334

The Herodorus basin is SE of Crete.

The Levantine, is the one between Cyprus, Israel, Lebanon:
Levant basin holds 122 trillion cubic feet of natural gas
http://www.yalibnan.com/2010/04/10/levant-basin-holds-122-trillion-cubic-feet-of-natural-gas/

Why… If you ask me, 2 possibilities:
1) The greek politicians are scared to raise voice even to Libya, as if Greece was completely defenceless. Unless there are interests backing up Libya that Greece is scared to confront.
2) As this American gentleman, consultant to “Alaskan” company says, in Sudan, they will probably go to war soon because of the oil in the south and after them, the eastern mediterranean may risk similar events, but believes that with the mediation of US, “which wants to take over these resources”, the parties in question, will find a deal (Greece, Turkey, Cyprus). Basically, as far as areas of turkish interest goes, specially the Aegean, we will go to the usual compromise, with the blessing of the “all seeing eye” and “supervisor” US which will take the “burdon” of exploiting anything of value in there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxjgMZxnHFI

As for the money, we will have to wait and see what happens… There are high probabilities that Greece won’t catch the targets for 2011 and so we will do a mild default. The good news, is that for the 2011 budget, if one removes the public investments, the net deficit is 3,1 bln. The rest, up to 22 bln, is… interests towards our creditors. If we default, we won’t get new credit, so we will have to live with 3,1 bln less. That’s not too bad. According to our “saving” plan, we have to cut 5 bln this year, to bring the deficit to 17 bln. So if one can live with 5 bln less, then i suppose can live with 3,1 bln less too.

And that’s why the greek gov may fall, by a possible popular turmoil, some estimate by March, before the 4th loan. When by defaulting you have to cut 3,1 bln and lowering your debt by not paying it and by not defaulting you have to cut 5 bln and increase the debt, if beyond the tax raises and already wage cuts and unemployment rise, you add mass firings, you will have a hard time explaining why not to default and how this plan is “saving” you… The time when the reforms will finish is close and after that, there won’t be much beneficial left in there.

For 2011, according to today’s news, the defence budget will be cut by 1,6 bln.

Either Greece will eliminate the deficit and make debt restructuring getting rid a good portion of the debt or if we continue to be “saved”, we wοn’t be able to buy the Tejas, but this UCAV:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EuDiDMG23cw/S3xDzbqsukI/AAAAAAAAANw/z3rrbRGvOWw/s400/IMG_0730.JPG

And of course there is also the other unpredictable event of the euro zone and EU collapsing before 2013. Which is a real possibility, in various scenarios. The EU will either start functioning like the US, with the ECB acting as Federal Reserve and Brussels start acting like the US central goverment or there won’t be any EU. And i am not talking about Greece. Greece is the least of problems, which serves simply to show how incapable the EU is in dealing with a minor problem.

The East is rising and claims a portion of the welfare and hence money of the West. The first signs – called austerity – are visible all over Europe and we ‘re only in the start. Just wait until cheap chinese and indian cars and mechanic parts start circulating freely in the european market. The EU either will act as one or the decline of each one will begin.

Unfortunately the greek problem i fear will become part of a political bargain, that i am not sure is for the benefit of Greece. But the population has been accumulating much anger and may have the final word.

Appeasement doesn’t work, the more you offer the turks the more they want.

I know, but you know how’s the dominating mentality in Greece.

Eurofighter hopes to sell 40 jets to Turkey
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Thursday, November 11, 2010
ÜMİT ENGİNSOY

ANKARA – Hürriyet Daily News
A consortium based in Italy, from where Turkey already receives attack helicopters and military surveillance, wants to further boost its role in the Turkish defense market. Italy and Turkey should carry their commercial relations to the strategic level, says Italy’s deputy defense minister.

‘We are offering Turkey the opportunity to jointly develop the Eurofighter 2020, the next version of the Eurofighter,’ says Marco Valerio Bonelli, head of public relations and communications at Eurofighter.

Eurofighter, a consortium of European aircraft makers, wants to sell 40 Eurofighter Typhoon 2020 jets to the Turkish Air Force, senior company officials said Thursday.

“We are offering to Turkey the opportunity to jointly develop the Eurofighter 2020, the next version of the Eurofighter,” said Marco Valerio Bonelli, head of public relations and communications at Eurofighter. “It wouldn’t be parts production, but joint development.”

“We would like to provide two squadrons of Eurofighters to Turkey,” said Giorgio Zappa, director general of Finmeccanica, an Italian conglomerate, whose subsidiary Alenia Aeronautica is one of the makers of the Eurofighter. Two Eurofighter squadrons consist of nearly 40 aircraft.

“Our cooperation [with Turkey] had been based mostly on industrial and commercial cooperation. Now we need to carry this cooperation to the strategic level, for 30 to 40 years,” said Guido Crosetto, Italy’s deputy defense minister.

“Today we are making together a helicopter, tomorrow we can move to another helicopter type, and then we can move to an aircraft,” Crosetto said. “This matter will be one of the subjects I and [Turkish procurement chief] Murad Bayar will be talking about during my visit.”

All three officials spoke to the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review at the opening of Finmeccanica’s Ankara office. Senior Turkish and Italian officials attended the opening ceremony.

Finmeccanica

Finmeccenica is the second largest industrial group and the largest hi-tech industrial group based in Italy. It works in the fields of defense, aerospace, security, transport and energy and is partly owned by the Italian government, which holds about 30 percent of Finmeccanica’s shares.

Finmeccanica’s subsidiaries in the defense field include Alenia Aeronautica, AgustaWestland and Telespazio, among others. AgustaWestland and Telespazio have already been awarded massive defense contracts in Turkey.

The Eurofighter consortium’s members include Alenia Aeronautica, Britain’s BaE Systems and the European EADS. The Eurofighter Typhoon is presently used by the air forces of Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain and Austria.

For its next-generation fighter requirements, Turkey has already chosen United States-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Lightning II. It plans to buy about 100 F-35s, worth about $15 billion.

However, Zappa said Turkey could accommodate both the F-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon, as the two fighters have mostly different functions. The Eurofighter was designed mainly as an air-to-air fighter while the F-35 is more suitable for air-to-ground missions.

If Turkey decides to buy the Eurofighter, it could replace its fleet of older, U.S.-made air-to-air F-4Es with the new planes.

“It mostly depends on our budget conditions,” one Turkish procurement official said about the chances of a Eurofighter buy. If Ankara chooses not to purchase the Eurofighter, it might buy an additional 20 F-35s, said a defense analyst.

Missile defense

In recent years Italy has become Ankara’s largest defense supplier, after the U.S. It has signed multibillion-dollar deals with AgustaWestland for the joint manufacture of 60 attack helicopters and a smaller contract with Telespazio for a military satellite.

In a related development, a top official from the European missile maker Eurosam announced that his company signed a framework agreement with the Turkish military electronics company Aselsam, the missile maker Roketsan and the systems integrator Ayesas forr cooperation in missile technology Thursday. “This agreement creates great work potential with the Turkish companies,” said Antonio Perfetti, Eurosam’s president.

Eurosam is competing with U.S., Russian and Chinese rivals in supplying Turkey’s multibillion-dollar long-range, high altitude anti-missile air defense systems program.

The framework agreement with the three Turkish companies details the work share of the Turkish firms in the Turkish program in the event Eurosam wins the Turkish missile contract.

The members of Eurosam include MBDA of France, MBDA of Italy and France’s Thales. Perfetti is also general manager of MBDA Italy.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=eurofighter-seeks-to-sell-40-jets-to-turkey-2010-11-11

With F35 delays and if the cost spikes, this may actually become a possibility.

If Turkey decides to buy the Eurofighter, it could replace its fleet of older, U.S.-made air-to-air F-4Es with the new planes.

Mr Zappa is confused. It’s the opposite. He should have said that the F35 may replace the US made air-to-ground F4E and the Eurofighter the F16. The turkish F4 can only use AIM-9 and are optimized for A-G.

Update on FREMM. The Supreme Naval Council made some new and final modifications on Nov. 1st. Compared to the standard french FREMM, the greek will have:

1) 24 VL MICA and replacement of the 2 SYLVER A70 and 2 SYLVER A43 with 1 SYLVER A70 and 3 SYLVER A50.

2) OTO Melara 127/64 LW instead of the 76 Super Rapid and replacement of the EO fire control system, with new hybrid electro-optical and radar (EO/R).

3) 2 20mm guns on each side of the bridge (bridge wings).

4) 2 helicopter missile replenishment areas, with capacity for storage for 4 Penguins and 20 Hellfires.

5) Instead of the OTO Melara STRALES, installation of Millenium with new hybrid EO-R fire control on the rear of the ship.

6) Controllable Pitch Propellers instead of Fixed Pitch propellers.

7) 2nd RAS (replenishment at sea) area on the starboard of the ship.

This is final (defencenet was wrong) and now the negotiations can start about the workshare.

http://77.235.59.34/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1196:-fremm&catid=31:defence-greece&Itemid=54

Also, about the financing of the program. It is obvious that the greek goverment can’t sign such a contract in 2011, which will be very tough year. So, a consorcium of french and a greek bank, are willing to give loans, at low interest rate. The first rate of 400 mln will be paid in 2018. The banks are PNP Paribas, Societe Generale and General bank of Greece.

According to defencenet, the banks are willing to cover the entire cost of 3,5 bln for 6 vessels, in a construction program that will last 15 years. It also says that the interest rate, will be the one that the french state has for its own loans, that is, below 3%.

According to defence point, the cost is 3,2 that the banks consorcium will cover + 1 bln that the greek state will pay directly.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15408&Itemid=48

The greek PM will be in France on Monday and the issue is expected to be put from the french side.

Congratulations, in deed you found the interesting part in it. I guess when the backseater is feeling lazy and wants to relax a bit, read his newspaper or call the wife, he uses the center stick. When he must do his job seriously, he uses the sidesticks. 😀 Seriously, i haven’t seen this configuration before. I wonder if the german F4 ICE got it too.

An interesting photo from backseat of F4 AUP:

@Aspis

You have raised some interesting points. I Hope we purchase all the UAE mirage which will be of great benefit in replacing our A-7’s and F-4’s as mentioned earlier. There are other matters of concern such as tank ammo and torpedoes for our U-214’s, preferably Black Shark.

I don’t think we will get Black Shark. It was dropped once because of modifications needed in the tubes, which would require more money. So i think we will get the german ones.

Also I was pleased to hear that our AH-64A will be upgraded to the AH-64D Block II. The first of 70 out of 223 M109A3GE A2 will be arriving today.

Yes, it was about time to get those M109… With the new cuts, i expect all towed howitzers to disappear. These M109 will allow for smoother transition.

I hope we don’t purchase the BMP-3 because the 100mm gun is a low pressure gun that cannot hit moving targets. It’s designed to be used against fortified positions and infantry. The Marder 1A3 is not the ideal solution by no means, but they are dirt cheap.

The 30mm is about moving targets and for now it is enough. The 100mm if hits close, can disable thermal cameras etc. The Marder will probably need refurbishment. I don’t know at the end how much each would cost. So i am uncertain on the matter.

S-400 long range sam’s of course can help in detection and countering the F-35 with the Buk m2’s. Let’s not forget our Tor m1’s, SA-8’s, Asrad-Hellas, Crotale NG’s and Skyguard/Velos. PAC-3’s and S-400’s that’s one hell of a SAM network. I wonder what’s happening with S-300 PMU-1’s, will they be upgraded?

The problem is that the effective range against F35 will be reduced. The only answer to this, is with the integration of the systems and… newer ones. This is where i have my doubts. Because of the US veto, the S300 isn’t as well integrated as the western SAMs. I don’t know to what degree. We need them to be able to exchange image. If not, we must see something western unfortunately. The S300 will be upgraded probably, if our politicians fix the economy with a nice haircut. If they intend to carry on with 155% debt trying to reduce it (we will all be dead before they bring it to 60% that Mrs Merkel wants), what can i say…

MLRS and more land based Exocet Block III on our islands will create havoc for the turks. The turks won’t be receiving the F-35 until 2016, so we still have time. It all boils down to our politicians as usual.

Cheers Neo

The MLRS is way too expensive. We should look east for cheap rocket launchers. And speak of the devil…Today’s news. Maybe someone in the army staff is reading this thread. :p

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15393&Itemid=139

Could it be that the army is starting to wake up from the long sleep and live in 2010? We go buy ultra-expensive material, yet the deterrence of such cheap systems, is much bigger. They can act both as economic asset destroyers along and coast and as anti-landing weapons. But, as in the case of more hovercrafts, some people are sleeping. Like a saying goes, you can fight like a lion or you can fight like a fox. Looking at some procurement mentalities, especially in the army, i sometimes think that we are a fox that thinks she is a lion. This results in a dumb fox.

The issue isn’t to wreak havoc. It’s to convince the other side that can wreak havoc, so that they won’t try anything. Otherwise, havoc or no havoc, they will grab some islands. Kastellorizo for starters is a guaranteed and easy target, because it interrupts the turkish exclusive economic zone and it’s so far from our mainland to defend.

Greece already enjoys an excellent SAM network. So why not forward the little money we have towards the navy or air force?

Well, the long range SAMs technically belong to HAF, so it’s still airforce. 😀 The Army, if we believe the first articles that leaked, will the one that will take the biggest burdon to save money by eliminating and merging units, moving camps, retiring old material etc. And we ‘ve hearth nothing about any major new army program, contraty to navy and HAF.

Anyway, our SAM network soon will be full of holes. By the end of the year, the Hawk batteries, expire their guaranteed missile lifespan. Even if they didn’t, one has to question how efficient can still be.

The other problem, is… the detection of the F35. The S400 radar can help both in detection and in countering. There’s no point for example in getting Typhoons, if you don’t see what’s coming at you. Because of the big radar range, the S400 can fill the gaps that will be left by the Hawks and the reduced coverage of the other existing radars against the F35, in conjunction with IMHO some low band radars and mobile radars on the islands. At the end of the day, on the islands, there’s nothing of value. They want to do CAS with F35? Fine. There isn’t much else to do there unless they want to bomb sand and goats. Our main concern will be to able to protect valuable targets in the mainland (Tanagra-Corinth-Elefsis-Salamis, Larissa, Thessaloniki). In order to do that, they have to fly over the islands and over the sea, not an ideal situation. A network of mobile radars on the islands, will IMHO make the F35 impossible to hide. When it will be getting illuminated from all sides and angles (plus trying to maintain optimal profile against the large mainland radars and Erieye), it will be difficult not to show its presence. The S400 will also prove very good F16 killer and again, few systems can cover huge area. Once you know where to intercept, then even if you want to do “OK Corral” with the F35, is easier, since you can have aircrafts intercept it from different angles. If EADS claims about 30 degrees being enough are true, then we can arrange even more.

Of course, it will all depend on how we will administer our economic situation. Personally, if we manage to drop the deficit to about 3%, i am in favour of doing debt restructuring immediately, with a nice “haircut”. The question is: “Will the greek politicians dare do it? Or will they rather prefer a slow death for the country, trying to pay a debt of 155% up to the last cent to the banks if Mrs Merkel requires so?”. Because, i don’t think the population will endure that. The current memorandum is good for making reforms and bringing down the deficit, but it’s not “saving” us. It’s saving european banks. I think it’s fair that they take a moderate share of damage, since it’s their greed that made them buy greek bonds to that amount, even though Greece wasn’t famous for its economy. We should only pay 100% the state loans, since they have state warrancies too. Just like now the eu countries are thinking to save their banks, as soon as we can, we should think of our own sake too. The banks will have by then avoided most of their damage anyway.

If we do a haircut, with the deficit already under control and growth coming back, the debt will fall immediately to “acceptable” levels, so i think a limited buy of S400 and maybe BUK is feasible to close the gaps for the few mainland valuable areas. Luckily, it’s not like we have to fear about our heavy industry or our silicon valley being hit. 😀 If our politicians decide to drag the corpse to the bitter end, well…

If we can purchase 30+ mirage 2000-9 it will be nice, that way we can start getting rid of our A-7’s and F-4’s.
The mirage 2000-5mk2 and the UAE mirage 2000-9 are almost identical except for the italian RWR.

Exactly. The benefit alone of retiring 2 types, will soon extinguish the expenditure to buy the Mirage. But, will the UAE sell? It will depend on their deal for Rafale. And will the greek politicians buy?

“The best deterrence for Greece, is now to be able to destroy valuable infrastructure along the coast. Nothing else.”

Welcome BrahMos IMHO.

Cheers Neo

Brahmos or most other missiles of its category. We could stick with Exocet Block III, so not to introduce new missile type. We have dozen unsinkable carriers that can fire to both land and sea and we have such batteries only to a very few. How much sense does this make?

But as i said, opposite to every turkish port, we should have a battery of multiple rocket launchers. If needed, come out, fire a salvo, destroy the port, warehouses, have them pay to rebuild it again. That’s deterrence, not being able to shoot down 20 aircrafts more. Let them destroy them afterwards. All we should be able to do, is to take 1 battery out from safe place and fire a salvo. It will have earned it’s money.