I thought you might like to see pictures of the Brazilian Mirage 2000Cs (aka F-2000C), they were taken recently by myself:

http://cavok.com.br/blog/?p=17681#more-17681

Rudnei

Brazil should change her default camouflage to this :
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale_brazil2.jpg

It’s photoshoped, but it’s good. Or to something with 2 shades of green and brown patches.

The roundel in the new color scheme is too bright .It needs to be darker white to blend in e.g. in USAF

Has the HAF considered digital pixelated camo ?

Yes, it’s too bright. If you ask me, the whoe camouflage is wrong. They simply try to copy the US colour, but as you say, the white in the roundel strikes your eyes.

AFAIK, there is no pixelated camo plan.

Anyway, i think we can kiss the trainner goodbye and we will be lucky if we order new aircraft in 2014. Now defencenet says that the reviewed procurement program slits by 6 months to 1 year and there will be also change in the defence dogma (whatever that means).

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14220&Itemid=139

So much for the “safe information”…

and what do they say of the M2000 ? :$ The IR missiles are Mica IR ?

They don’t say anything about the aircraft. They explain their job. That they are in 5 min readiness, that can fall to 2 min, they explain what “readiness” is (the audience might not be familiar with the term), what’s the procedure for scrambling, etc.

I am not sure whether the MICA IR uses the same HUD symbols with the Magic 2. I know for sure that the Magic 2 uses the triangle. Given than all the pilots seen were from 2000EGM, i would think more probable that the missile is Magic 2. The journalist wasn’t explaining the dogfights. He just put them because they look nice.

T-2 Buckeye is near retirement.

Any word on the subject of flight training by the defence press?

Unless we view published the reviewed procurement program of the new MoD, there is no safe answer. Defencenet was saying that it should be ready by end of the month. We ‘ll see.

The only mention about this program from the new Mod, was that he liked the idea of the “Eurotrainning” hypothesis, where some countries would agree to train their pilots together and so Greece wouldn’t have to buy her own aircrafts but contribute to a part of the common expenses. But this doesn’t seem to be a reality.

It shows though that most likely he doesn’t have the trainner program in his priorities. Also, when Defencenet earlier (posted in this thread) “leaked” her “safe information” about the new procurement program, there is no mention to the trainner program.

I really don’t know. I certainly don’t expect any order for them in 2011 or 2012. Yesterday a small leftist party made parliamentary question stating “Have you cut the procurement expenditure yet and if no, why haven’t you?”. The MoD a few days ago said “we finish with the tank ammunition and push for the frigates, submarines and IFV”, which are all pending problems he inherited from his predecessor.

In deed, today the govermental council signed for 12.000 german tank ammunition rounds (more will follow with open competition for estimated total of about 83.000) and F16 engine kits. The latter ones alone cost 220 mln.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14172&Itemid=139

To give you an idea, his predecessor, about whom, the new MoD said “did he ever set foot in his office?”, had bought the Leo2A6 (and A4) and he had ordered with them an old ammunition, the DM33 in 15.000 rounds. While he should have bought DM63, which is the best ammunition for this cannon. Otherwise, it’s like “castrating” the Leo2A6 by using inferior ammunition, that doesn’t take full advantage of the cannon. So now the new MoD has to correct the blunder of the other.

On October 1st Abu Dhabi Mar takes over Skaramanga and is trying to merge with Elefsis. As soon the situation gets clear with the shipyards so that one can know where will be built what, it means the FREMM deal must proceed and even before that, the pending submarines. For the subs alone, Greece will have to make payments of several hundred milions soon, as the U214 cost more than the upgrade of U209 and although discounted, we have to pay for the difference of money left for Papanikolis.

As for the IFVs, the Germans and Americans have stepped in, trying to “save us money” and they want to sell used Marder and Bradley respectively, instead of us buying new BMP-3. I don’t know how this will end. Economically it’s probably better. Politically, the russians want their share.

As you may suspect, the money involved (and after the order of 229 M109 from Germany), is starting to accumulate and in a time of crisis, it has attracted the attention of the more leftist parties. So i wouldn’t have high hopes for the trainner in the near future. The Buckeye will probably compete with the army’s Hueys as the aircrafts with most flying hours.

Besides, until 2012 we must keep the new procurements down, so that the money can go to more productive sectors. I believe most contracts will be be executed after 2012, after the situation of the economy becomes clear.

EDIT: The Council has postponed signatures, because matters of “moral issue” were raised and also it was deemed bad for PR to do it this week. (= the PM has to appear to Thessaloniki Expo, where traditionally greek PMs were announcing raises. Now he can’t give anything, so they figured that buying weapons would be bad for his image, since the other 2 parties of the left would accuse him of not being socialist). Greek politics…

Wasn’t M346 selected? Has there been any progress on that?

No, it wasn’t selected. HAI had signed a MoU with Aermacchi, so that in case it would be selected, they would cooperate in some way. It was thought for that reason that the M346 was the favourite to win.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the trainner was postponed for the 2015-20 program. Unless this “Eurotrainning” idea takes shape, in which case seems that our MoD will jump in immediately.

I can remember reading in a newspaper a few years back about an accident in which a Greek government minister died in a HAF government jet.
If I recall, the plane stalled or spun, the pilot was eventually able to recover the plane, but the minister wasn’t strapped into his seat (I think he broke his neck). Is that the very same aircraft?

(On reflection, maybe not, the type is too new… )

Yes, that was in 1999. 6 actually died in that airplane, one was the vice minister of foreign affairs. It was a Dassault Falcon, under the responsibility of Olympic airways (HAF doesn’t get involved with civillian aircrafts). The aircraft took a dive from 25.000 to 5.000 and those that hadn’t fastened their seatbelt hit the ceiling. The pilots were charged with human error, for excessive speed, incorrect use of the autopilot prior to landing and not giving the proper importance to a “pitch feel” warning led that was lit.

The aircraft above is an Embraer-145, bought several years later, as part of the Erieye deal (it’s practically the same aircraft that carries the radar).

I think its crazy we dont have a Prime Ministerial plane.

One of the richest countries on the planet, lets act the part. Dress to impress e.t.c

I don’t want a 747 or anything an A330 would be fine.

Our PMs have an NBRIB-145:

It brought them tons of success. 😀

Well if they want a good and relatively inexpensive 5. gen fighter may I suggest the F-35 that will be operated also by fellow NATO countries…?

I hold reservations about the F35 until it becomes operational and shows it real operational costs. Also the price is still uncertain. I ‘d also like some HAF’s evaluation of its stealthiness.

Or are you still worried about Turkey? If yes you could perhaps consider strengthen the ties with Israel and try to obtain F-35i…

Well, if you think about it, the greek gov says that we must maintain conscription and buy weapons for Turkey. So, unlike them, i, as well as HAF, try to think on the basis of that threat, without counting on the appeasement policy. So, i want the best cost/performance purchase, keeping in mind, that even if Greece doesn’t make a debt restructuring at 2012 (or later), it will be a decade of “thin cows”, slowly bringing the debt towards the 100%.

I don’t think Israel would trust anyone with her technology. Also Israel as soon as the Kemalists take back power on Turkey, will return on being Turkey’s ally. So we can forget Israel.

If that’s not an option then yes the PAK FA seems attractive. The PAK FA may be the only fighter that realistically will be able to handle the F-35 in an effective manner, IMHO.

The only alternative would be to buy large numbers of 4.5 gen fighters and then the Gripen NG should be the obvious choice due to low operating costs.

Quantity is a quality of it’s own.

This is exactly what i mean. You don’t have to be Einstein to see the obvious. But unfortunately, despite the fact that i may occasionally conceed myself to dream, we won’t buy russian and while i fully agree that the Gripen NG is the next best bet, i am afraid it won’t happen either, because of politics… Personally, i think it will be either EADS or LM.

The Gripen NG actually, has a big plus, the swashplate AESA. The greek member that serves in F16 wasn’t informed about it, so someone told him that it has 120(?) deg coverage and in short words, he says that in BVR this would be very big advantage against fixed radar, because it would allow the Gripen pilot to actually fly away from its target while guiding the missile, while traditionally, you keep flying towards your target (at the limits of you radar cone, bust still closing the distance) with fixed radars, which makes you vulnerable to response fire from your targeted aircraft. This, combined with the fact that it’s much cheaper both in purchase and operation, would make it for me the obvious choice. Not to mention that it can shoot all kind of weapons including the french ones.

But all this is purely theoretical. The real game has begun. Each contender has chosen his local arch-lobbyist:

– EADS changed her greek representative and now has put a 70 year old ex-HAF Phantom pilot (retired), who has also been Chief of Staff.

– LM counts as always on her trusty Dennys Plessas (greek-American), who in 1999 managed to kill the F15’s chances, despite HAF had ranked it first. And who later killed Typhoon’s chances and got 2 more contracts for F16.

– Rosoboronexport opened office in Athens 5 years ago and has found a greek chemical engineer as her “man in Athens”.

– SAAB has put an ex- HAF pilot too.

– Boeing this time has decided to play seriously and uses as representative the same person that represents Krauss-Maffei and Raytheon. The same man has relations with the greek owner of Intracom Defence, so you basically get 2 locals to lobby for you while you pay one.

– Dassault is based on 2 brothers, owners of Miltech Hellas, who also represent Thales, Thomson and Eurocopter. They are in disadvantage as it is considered that they ‘ve already won “enough”, with the FREMM, VBL and helicopters.

Let the lobbies hit the floor. 😀

You see, the politicians don’t care about what’s really the best for HAF. No wonder each time HAF picked one aircraft, at the end she got another…

Well, my signature tells the rest… Besides, who else can come up with payment solutions like the one SAAB made to Serbia? Payment in 10 years?!

“THE PAK FA WILL BE OFFERED TO HAF, IF GREECE PROCEEDS TO ORDER OF SU-35”

According to defencenet, “Russia will include Greece in the countries that will acquire the PAK-FA, if Greece orders Su-35 and gets in Sukhoi’s logistical support chain, so that an aircraft of high performance like PAK-Fa can be later supported”, a company representative in Moscow stated. “If Greece proceeds to an order of Su-35, then she will be in the first wave of countries that will receive the PAK-FA”, the same official said.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14136&Itemid=139

The greek MoD is only a few months in his office and so clueless about weapons. Given the usual lobbies, he probably things that the only good aircrafts on sale are F-16, Typhoon and Rafale.

– If you want to make HAF a favour and save her from yet another political-lobby purchase.
– If you want to see Su-35 and PAK-Fa with Aegean ghost camouflage, other than in drawings.
– If you want to help your banks avoid yet another adventure with greek bonds in a 2nd bankruptcy 30 years from now,
– If you are J-7 Hotdog 😀 ,

give HAF a hand. Please explain to the greek MoD why russian is good and cheap and why enough is enough with the lobbies. Do your duty as aviation enthusiasts.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Evaggelos-Venizelos/80258823622?v=wall

(email is also provided in his account info).

Thank you.