AspisThats all true, but this is no secret evil ploy. Its common knowledge the US do this in order to gain military and political leverage.If Romania cannot afford the upfront capital costs of a European fighter and it does actually want to be closer to the US, going for used F-16s is fine,jut as long as you know what you are letting yourself in for, which I imagne the Romanians do….
I don’t say it’s “evil ploy”. It’s a business ploy and political too if you want.
I HOPE the Romanians are aware of it. We ‘ve been getting “free” stuff for decades, until we realized that it wasn’t always a good deal. One thing we do now, is that we send inspectors to examine the “free” material and deny the offer alltogether or accept only the pieces that are judged “worthy”. This isn’t just with Americans, but with Germans too, who are also giving away (or at low price) extra weapons from their stockpile.
On paper, these deals usually look much better than what they ‘re proved to be some years later.
In cases of lesser equipment, they can also harm your local industry’s workshare and development. Because these “offers” always come when you have a requirement , with the mentality “Don’t buy new, don’t built local design, our solutions is sooooooo much cheaper!”. With time, accepting easily , time after time, this reasoning, can become a bad habit.
So, if the need isn’t pressing, sometimes it’s better to wait a bit and get something new , rather than jumping on a free offer.
If however, the Romanian goverment wants to make a political gesture, then getting “free” F16s is i think a very good , low cost, political gesture.
AspisHmmm but how many of those Block 25 are flyable without a serious overhaul? More then likely they are being parted out to keep ANG F16 in the air.
This “free giveaway” is a common US policy for arms sales. It’s an awesome way of getting money for something useless and preparing for future contracts. Such “giveaways” are very common, when a country makes a requirement for new material:
It’s “free”, but:
1) You pay for overhaul expenses.
2) You pay for ammunition (missiles) and spare parts.
3) The rate of using spare parts will be likely increased compared to new aircraft, so more money.
4) You prevent the Romanian airforce from getting european aircraft. This means, that you increase the chances that when they do want to buy new, they will choose US aircraft (you set a foothold in their airforce, support line, armament and this can influence future purchases). For example, if you get the “free” F16s now, wouldn’t it make sense , later, when you will want to buy new, to buy F16 again? Of course it would!
With time our Romanian friends will learn more about these tactics. 😀 For aircrafts it may be worth it. When they will offer “free” ships, be very careful. They can cost a lot in the long run and tie your Navy to US designs/weapons systems.
As thet say “There’s no such thing as a free meal”.
AspisMost of the footage is probably from french archive , but just in case, this is a video presented to greek TV from the Charles De Gaulle in the recent excercize in Greece.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV-xvVjHln4
Captain Rolland is De Gaulle’s commander.
Vice Admiral Kerignard is the De Gaulle’s battle group commander.
Mr. Farnaud is the french ambassador in Greece. The night footage near the end is from the carrier at Souda Bay, Crete.
According to defencenet, the Rafales weren’t F3. This video claims otherwise. Of course it also writes “Charles” as “Sarles”, so don’t ask me who is right.
AspisThanks, I had read of Lockheed/Navantia’s offer, but hadn’t heard of the proposed MAR buy-in (to HSY), though it makes sense as T-K is basically selling everything except submarine design which Germany thinks is strategic.
I was under the impression the MEKO upgrade would happen anyways and T-K would be at least a consultant/licensor no matter who owns HSY… Though they probably would like to dictate their combat system, etc for the Corvettes (I think it was defencenet that had a bit about some ‘Indigenous/Greek design Corvette’, but that could presumably work with T-K or DCNS combat systems).
Honestly, it seems like re-nationalizing HSY is the best bet, keeping partners more competitive on a per-project basis, and negotiate participation in exports to 3rd countries for the same types/ within capabilities of HSY.
What with T-K’s behavior dragging in the 209 AIP upgrade, I do think getting rid of them is the best bet…
I don’t know, all this story has me confused. I will wait to see the final agreement. I am surprised that they would want to stay even with 25%… Or their partner for what matters. Defencenet updated the article saying that the goverment has agreed. The actual goverment anouncement after the ministers’ meeting says that they will meed with Mr. Atzpodien on 23 December. But defencenet says that they will agree.
I don’t know anything about the MEKO program, it’s just “on paper” , so nobody knows when or what upgrade it will be. I guess they want to be sure that all systems will be theirs…
Yes, a greek design corvette was presented a few days ago to the Navy, but there were no details of what systems it would have on. Obviously, you could adjust systems to be “german” most likely, if it was to be built in Skaramanga. If there is a requirement. Apparently some know more about this mysterious corvette thing than the rest of us common mortals. Because in the previous’ goverment plan, there wasn’t supposed to be a corvette anywhere. While now suddenly defencenet talks of corvettes, a mysterious greek company goes to show a corvette design… I don’t know.
The renationalization, is what our communist party asks for (as with every privatized ex public company), but i don’t see it happening, because of the current condition of the economy and because the workers union would become too strong again and mix ties with politicians and it would end up with huge losses, a black hole for public money. At least until the greek politics change.
The next best thing would be for Tavularis to get them. But i have my doubts about EU competition laws (anti-monopoly).
On the other hand Abu Dhabi Mar should be more of a warranty for the future of the shipyards. Because theoretically, someone bigger can buy off Tavularis too anyway.
The greek state must once more distribute jobs between Skaramanga and Elefsis-Neorion shipyards. Since Elefsis will take the FREMM, if there is in deed a corvette program in preparation in the plans of the new MoD, probably the Skaramanga will get it. As well as the MEKO upgrade and the building of 2 U209AIP.
AFAIK, the greek goverment would prefer not to upgrade the 2 remaining U209 and build 2 new ones from scratch.
AspisI don’t mean to diminish the Rafale performance, but i think this is getting too overblown. It was BVR, maybe the french employed better tactic. It happens. In an older german excercize there is a photo of an F4E “Rafale eater”. The F4 of GAF have good radar and Amraams. So they made BVR kills. Even if we don’t know the final score or whether the Rafales were on air to air or striker aircrafts, still one F4E is on a photo and shows the killmarks.
Personally i have found more interesting the dogfight images rather than the BVR results in UAE. One result isn’t significant enough to show which one is better. And i don’t think the final result is probable to be a true indicator of the performance of the Typhoon.
Probably any aircraft can shoot down another in BVR (well, maybe the F22 can be an exception).
So why argue? You win some, you lose some.
AspisBad google translation and there is some history before that. I m getting tired , that’s why i didn’t update. I ‘d rather wait for end of January for something more concrete.
A greek company ONNEX appeared as candidate. They seem to have a MoU with spanish Navantia. It was on defencenet, the link to the main article is now missing. It is still referred here:
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10034&Itemid=51
According to this, ONNEX, backed with Navantia, wanted to get the frigate program together with the shipyards. Spanish frigate with Aegis. So seems unlikely from the moment that talks resumed with the French.
Soon after that, Thyssen came back and now doesn’t want to pull out of Greece, but to keep 25% of the shipyards, while 75% will go to ABU Dhabi Mar (which is Thyssen’s partner). Atzpodien proposes a complete renegotiation of the fate of shipyards and ships built by Jan 20.
Defencenet says that the Germans will likely try to commit the goverment to take the MLU upgrade of the MEKO frigates and 4 corvettes that “according to info of the site” will be in the reviewed program of the new MoD.
In the newer link you saw:
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10071&Itemid=139
It says that Thyssen wants the above mentioned solution and that alone, because they don’t want another company to go ahead with the submarine program. Their talks with Tavoularis also failed.
Defencenet says that the possibility of Abu Dhabi (which is already a partner of Thyssen) taking over the shipyards isn’t disliked at all by the goverment, because it’s an industry giant (so the future of the shipyards looks good).
The negative aspect, is that Tavularis fails to get his hands on the shipyards.
And repeats that the Germans want to take the MEKO upgrade, the 2 U209 AIP and 4 corvettes (this corvette thing is new to us, probably defencenet has inside news about the review the new MoD is doing…?).
AspisDuring exercises generic ranges are usually agreed for the missiles to not unveil the exact performance, even among allies. Might be different if both sides operate the same missile anyway.
I still find it a bit moronic taking such agreements, but anyway…
Regarding the PIRATE it is supposed to feature an identificaiton function, it’s not a plain IRST as described by others here, but a dual-band imaging IR sensor with IRST and FLIR capabilities. It is known that when PIRATE entered service it didn’t feature all functions, weather this has changed by now, I don’t know. It is said that there are still some software glitches. They might be solved with PSC 3.70 to be introduced soon.
The claimed max range of the OSF IRST is 130 km (I’m sure Dare2 or someone else has a handy link on that). The PIRATEs max range has been stated with 145 km in some sources, one of them is a special issue published by AI/AFM (I think it was the 2006 release, but there was an earlier one from 12/03 as well).
Thanks. Yes, it’s pretty much the idea i had in mind.
AspisOSF contract was passed by what is now DGA in 1991 to Thomson Optronique and SAGEM, so the technology used at the time is pretty obsolescent today and spares would cost a fortune to produce.
Further more, the OSF IRST was the first western system to use two bandwidth but today the enormous progreses made with IR technology in France means they can go a few cycles forward within a couple of years.
They managed two world breakthrough under DGA contract over the past three years or so, for both IR and Optical, with pixel-powered matrices and multi-colour IR sensors using advanced algorythms to get rid of the noises of both bandwidth.
This increases the detection ranges of both optical and ir sensors in bad MTO.
Oh, don’t misunderstand me. I think the FSO as a brilliant idea, in the way it was implemented. And i am sad to hear that the IRST will be removed and replaced my camera only. I think the current concept is better, with both.
This is what the 1/7 LtColonel said, ROE are a bit weird but if he said so we have all the good reasons to believe him, btw it is not the first time, during one of the 12F Rafale M F1 encounter vs the Greeks their adversary couldn’t bevlieve how the French would count a kill at such a range, the AIM-120 couldn’t be fired out of its NEZ and count for a kill.
Reason is simple; MICA is way better and have was higher performances than what is generaly believed.
Yes, i ‘ve read that too. One issue was our F16 fellows underestimated the MICA (each pilot thinks his own aircraft is the best). Of course it could have also something to do with the fact they were flying without EW suite (still are, they ‘ve an issue with detection of CW radars, so they ‘ve been sitting in a storage facility) too, so they were not aware when they were being locked. Given the delay in the acceptance of the M2000-5, probably they weren’t so familiar with MICA. Add a bit of hyper-confidence probably on the Amraam vs MICA…
And the other yes, had to do with the way to calculate the kill, because more or less the F16 HUD shows you when a shot fails (HUD indication “loose”), while there is no such indication in the Rafale so each shot was regarded as kill.
AspisDegraded MICA performances level 1 (4/0) and two (3/1) for Rafale, if we do not know what the Typhoon ROE were we still canot claim Rafale had an advantage, reason why the 1/7 squadron pilots are so happy.
Why would they ask pilots to degrade their missiles’ performance , is something i can’t understand. If they go to war, they will have an agreement with the enemy to degrade their missiles? No. Then what’s the point in doing exercize in conditions that don’t reflect real life?
Besides, why did they ask to degrade MICA? The Typhoons had Amraam, right? Aren’t they claimed to have better range than the MICAs?
AspisDo you have the original source ? I am confident it should exist somewhere if it exists. I never found it for the moment but I didn’t look a lot and I am quite paranoiac about unbacked sources:D
tanks !
I don’t have a source. I have this impression. Didn’t Dassault want to replace the FSO’s irst because of obsolescense? I haven’t heard any complaints about the Pirate. I tend to remember that FSO has a bit shorter range than Pirate , but i won’t lose my time searching.
@ Dare2
Thanks, i understand.
AspisBecause it is the OSF near-IR CAMERA channel which allows for long range ID not the IRST.
Ah, so basically the camera outperforms the Pirate in target ID! I didn’t know that! Thanks.
AspisDon’t bother to find an excuse. Facts could well be much straightforward : ROE and Rafale’s FSO are the most obvious contenders here.
ROE usually require visual identification before any shot could occur. FSO provides such an identification at long range. That, of course, probably means “first shot” by a wide margin. End of the story.If you don’t like this one, I can come up with another : Rafale down low in TF mode, Typhoons lurking higher. Clear picture for one side, ground clutter and/or terrain masking for the other. You get it…
About the FSO… The Typhoon has also PIRATE, which is also supposed to have better range. So why would the FSO allow for earlier identification?
Aspisno it doesn’t.
But once again, nobody is claiming any A2A superioty over the typhoon.It is Bae who is spreading that the typhoon is vastly superior to the rafale in A2A for more than 10 years.
Well, if you were in their (Bae) place, wouldn’t you try to do the same? Remember, that the Typhoon started as interceptor and later they decided to add A-G capabilities, which are still a work on progress. So how else are you going to sell it? You will boast your strong engines, your supercruire and hence, your primary design as interceptor.
In Greece this is “campaing” is successful amongst fans, exactly because interception is of primary importance. So what more fertile ground for EADS to make a campaign about that…
See what I mean ?
The typhoon is always presented as the ultimate interceptor while the rafale is fine but nothing special in A2A…
But where are the proofs of the rafale being that much inferior than the Typhoon in A2A ?
Both aircrafts have met several times during NATO exercices for the past 3 years and the typhoon has never proved ANYTHING special against the rafale, NE-VER. And if I believe the various rumors from the french aviators, it is even quite the contrary.
Well, don’t ask me for proof! After the latest revelations, there is nothing that i would like more than a direct confrontation. At this point , personally i think i ‘d pick the one with cheaper life cycle costs. And i ‘ve no idea of which one that would be.
AspisThank you Dare2 for translating.
AspisI can’t understand what’s this thing between Arthuro, Cougar and Dare2. You ‘re all French , right? So why are you picking on each other? :confused:
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