he just said that Typhoon has better TWR . nothing more .

Well, we knew the Typhoon had that. Did he say it has better FBW too?

… or is it simply that the Rafale is superior.

That’s a hypothesis we can’t rule out.

Accoding to a arturo link and according to Bruno Falcoz – Dassault general manager then – when Dassault left the EF project the others participants were going blind in the dark with the Delta/canard/FBW configuration. They had to try to re-invent everything without any feed-back, while being a “commity” with several point of view to compromise.

Dassault had much more experience and has always been very carefull to never break up its teams.

We’re still “dominated” by all the propaganda made previously by the EF side on the world media/public opinion/whatever but it’s perfectly possible.

There are many hypothesis, including that and i think french aircrafts are usually underestimated by many, maybe because of their smaller userbase compared to US or Russian aircrafts, but 1 result, even if we accept the 7-1 as true, doesn’t guarantee a superiority.

People tend to forget the pilots. A superior tactic can wipe out an equally good opponent. And it’s not just employing your “ready to use” tactics, it’s also about adopting in real time to the tactic that the enemy will come up with. It could be that they even underestimated the MICA…

Of course, if we start having repeated news of such results, then there’s something surely going on with the hardware itself.

In Greece there is surely a big campaign in favour of Eurofighter, which is presented as beyond compare in air combat. I must say that i wasn’t as much shocked by the Rafale kill (even if it is older), as from the Mirage2000 kill in dogfight. In greek magazines the Typhoon is presented as eating 3rd gen aircrafts for breakfast, because it’s the ultimate interceptor. And the Rafale as a better multirole, but not something spectacular in air combat compared to F16 B52 and certainly not in the league of Typhoon.

I ‘d like a direct confrontation in Greece, but i don’t see it happening.

I totally agree, if a RAF pilot (no need to be colonel) gives his own version with his reputation at stake (with his name) then I will listen. But that is not the case for the moment and I don’t believe JL.

Yes, for the moment, it’s anonymous source. Obviously you have read a lot of previous Lake articles, so you have your own credibility scale for him, i haven’t read his articles, so , this is why i am more open to him.

We can criticize JL “reliability” about his usual stances but he is certainly not an idiot. He will try to make the story as plausible as possible to make his point. But most of the time no names so it is impossible to verify. So if he decided to spin the truth he is going to give some “half hearted, hypocrite” good points to the rafale to strenghten his criticism.

This is understandable. The same goes for greek defence journalists when they want to spin things. Although some of them are more aggressive than they should and end up doing too obvious mistakes. 😀

The issue with JL is that he can lie as much as he wants as he never name his sources…

Putting your credibility at stake in the open press is a big difference…It has always been like that with him unnamed vs named (best example is Singapore)

Truth be said, i ‘ve never read a Lake’s article. Or if i did, i don’t remember. I don’t tend to memorize such information.

I know, he’s not popular amongst you french people in this forum. 😀

I can’t prove it but I have the conviction that he is somewhat in connection with BAE.

The same goes for me and greek magazines. You can only suspect the connection, if you look at the usual pubblicity pages from certain companies more often the others and the general trend the magazine follows towards a company. Otherwise you can’t prove it. But it comes times where you see that one of the 2 is lying. I mean, the Rafales at Larissa were either grounded or not. They can’t be both grounded and performing very well with high availability. So one is lying.

I’ve read his articles for several years now (about rafale and typhoon more precisely) and he is certainly not neutral at all when comparing the two aircrafts.
That is no way a crime or something to be blamed for…It’s up to everyone right to have an opinion and I will always respect it but it should be done on an honest basis. When you put arguments forward you can ask for the sources, especially for someone which is supposed to be a journalist.

Well, i haven’t read him to have an opinion of my own, but i believe usually journalists do have a “preference”. How much this preference influences their objectivity, varies from journalist to journalist.

The ATLC report from the frech ltc colonel grandclaudon (not sure of the spelling) was diffused in the main stream media, was discussed by most notorious defense analysis etc…The range of broadcasting (TV, newspaper, blogs even radio) of this info add to its credibility. It went much further than internet forums or specialized press…

I understand and that’s why i tend to believe him. But i hold a reservation, in case the other side produces a “British lt Colonel”. I mean, you never know, what if some British pilot is named too… Then what… Who to believe? The French pilot or the British pilot.

If as you say, Lake quotes pilots, but usually doesn’t name them, i will believe more the french story.

I don’t think that Lake’s story is totally insane. It’s plausible. But, when you put a reader in a dilemma on who to believe, i will believe the more “open” source.

My scale of credibility goes like this:

pilots that i can see talking directly in video > pilots quoted in articles by name > MoD representative > defence magazines > defence company representatives. The last 2 being a hard call to separate.

And guess who wrote that…..I think everyone can find the answer !!

Don’t expect to have anybody quoted with names etc as usual !:rolleyes:

Apsis,

the original source is here (so everyone will have the answer) :

http://typhoon.starstreak.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1842

Ah, thanks.

Now i understand why the greek blog doesn’t want to give source. A forum page isn’t exactly “reliable” webpage.

JL has been BAE (un)official journalist for years. Don’t expect him to write anything positive about the rafale or to give his source name except his friend craig “penrice?” from BAE.
I will be happy to hear the other side of the story but one could expect the same level of credibility then. Giving names and putting people credibility at stake would be a good start !
The best would be to have a report with named sources and a report which comes from someone different than J.Lake. I tell you I will take it seriously…But not JL who recently gave a tribune to BAE to dismiss collins flight test. (that is just one example among many)

Yes, from what i ‘ve understood by reading you, Lake is Jakoniko here, right?

Ok. I can accept as possibility that this was an unoficial excercize between “junior” pilots. There is still one issue remaining. The 4-0 and 3-1. In the way Lake describes things, there was no clear winner. Which goes against what the French Squadron leader claims.

So, 2 things happen:

1) The French pilot lies.
or
2) Lake lies.

Because even if this happened between junior pilots, a 4-0 and 3-1 isn’t unclear result.

Now, i suppose that Lake will put all this together in some article sooner or later, right?

If he doesn’t name his sources, as you say, i will be prone to believe the french side. Because the french squadron leader has put his name (and thus his reputation) on a public article in french press.

Because otherwise it’s a situation where you can’t tell who is less biased. Reminds me the Rafales at Larissa. One greek magazine was saying that they had huge availability issues, another the opposite and that they performed very well. None was quoting sources. And all magazines have an agenda. (You know, defence industry is a huge business and defence magazines in Greece sell 5000 copies per month. It’s amazing how they still exist. Or maybe it’s not. 😉 ).

So go figure who’s telling the truth.

distance is well below 2000 m more like 750 m looking at the “clock”…

Yes, i don’t mean the engagement distance. I mean distance between the HUD elements.

I edited my previous post and here’s a brief scheme:

Compare these distances with the M2000. They are different. And if it was a Mirage, there should be visible even partially, the altitude on the right, where i have put “ALT”.

It’s NOT these are know and even quantified fortes and weakneses of both aircrafts.

One canot have it all ways, it’s all a matter of compromise.

Personally i would like to have an excercize free of ROE, other than the area of excercize and see what happens.

In principle i agree with you, that you can’t make an aircraft that will excell in every possible role, in every possible condition.

Well the outcome of such gun fights is determined on a lot of things which aren’t related to the platform itself. Pilot skills, tactics, SA etc.

I agree and i have been telling for some time now that saying “this beats that” based on availble numbers is mostly a hobby to pass your time, but doesn’t say much in actual combat. Even more when you hear numbers like 10:1 kill ratio, where in real life this simply can’t happen, because the enemies don’t come 1 at a time.

What is interesting is that IF the Rafale HuD shots are from the UAE then one wonders why how the “they killed them BVR and it didn’t come to the merge” can’t be seen as contradictional.

Yes, that should be a contradiction.

I personally don’t believe that there is a big difference between the Rafale and the Typhoon in terms of dogfighting performance and the statement from “Benco” and that of the JG 74 guys seems to confirm just that.

I agree and i believe, that until Typhoon gets an HMD, dogfight engagements with the Rafale are probably a matter of pilot skill. There may be a part of the flight envelope where the one has an advantage above the other, but if the pilot is a notch above you… Also in excercizes much is dictated by ROE. If for example the Typhoons would prefer to engage from higher altitude but excercize rules didn’t allow it and brought the fight to an altitude where the Rafale performs better or equal, then…

I am sure Typhoon pilots have similar photos somewhere.