AspisGood to hear the pilot made it! Now Greek brothers, get rid of that lawn dart and get yourself some Gripens instead đ And since our dear government has all but given up on national defence Im sure you could get barely used C/D birds from Swedish AF stock for peanuts.
I myself, wouldn’t mind buying some Gripens NG, as they are a good platform at low costs, very good for routine CAPs with low cost. Unfortunately it appears that for the current competition the C/D is offered, probably due to fast delivery demands…The problem of which is the combat range and that it doesn’t give much more than the F16 B52+. Now, the NG would be a different story…
The biggest enemy of the Gripen, is that it can’t give political offsets. The Erieye itself, was used because the only alternative at the time was the E2C Hawkeye, which was deemed inferior back then and… american. So the Erieye won because there was not really a valid alternative out there and for a critical system like this, buying from Sweden is better than buying from USA. But, you never know… I wrote it in the Indian competition thread too, that the best thing with SAAB is the good “customer care”. Which we saw in the case of Erieye. Our configuration and requests for interoperability with various systems, caused attrition with the company. Defence magazines were saying about 2 years ago, that things were at a point very tense. But, SAAB did the job, without whining or threatening or anything else. And at the end, you have this:
“”The Hellenic air force has been a very demanding customer, but always acted in a spirit of openness and fairness,” says Kenth BĂśrjesson, Saab’s sales director for southern Europe. “We have listened and also taken the air force’s views into account in the implementation programme.”
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/16/322548/picture-greece-accepts-delayed-erieye-system-for-operational-use.html
Also a greek SAAB representative i think he was, recently in a magazine, said that the result of the “attrition” and “modifications” was that now HAF has the most advanced Erieye in the world and another article mentioned that it exceeded the initial expectations of HAF.
This to say, that often, systems that haven’t been “tested” for your demands before, can show problems. But, it is rare to arrive to the point that the company listens to the client, instead of making a drama out of it and at the end saying nothing bad.
We will see… As things go in Greece, we will have premature elections at April 2010 at the latest (possibly in autumn 2009). The goverment will change and if no decision has been taken yet, the political part of the game is open. The new (to-be) PM, is known to be more pro-american. But, he has also lived in Sweden (did post-graduate studies in Stockholm University)… This could play in favour of a surprising sale of Gripen… So it will be interesting to see what happens. Unless of course he insists on his view that “we don’t need anything new, we must use better what we have”. I hope he comes back to his senses by then.
The other disadvantage of the Gripen, is the use of US components. If we continue with the policy of not depending 100% on USA, this will play against the Gripen. It makes more sense to buy Typhoon or Rafale…
Personally as i said, i wouldn’t mind the Gripen NG in combination with a more heavyweight aircraft. And a batch of used C/Ds in that context wouldn’t be bad either.
The problem is politics, how HAF’s plans will be for the future and alas, how the new PM would like to treat the defence… Defence cuts is unfortunately the easiest, although irresponsible, way to find money. Why fight tax evasion which will cost you politically or overspending of pubblic sector, when you can cut defence expenditure? This is the reasoning… Only now that the banks had to be backed up, miraculously the goverment magically “discovered” 28 bln euros for them. If you ‘d ask for 1 more bln as extra defence expenditure, they ‘d say “impossible!”.
AspisFrom Scramble:
“HAF F-16C Blk 50 s/n 059 crashed this morning in north western Greece near the city of Ioannina. The plane belonged to 347Sq/111CW. The pilot ejected safely.”
Yes, i posted it in the previous page.
Here’s the first video that shows part of the debris (tail section):
http://www.zougla.gr/news.php?id=44490
The pilot was on trainning mission. He has 600 hours in F16s, 1200 total, took off from Anghialos AB, luckily seems he wasn’t hurt during or after the ejection, all sources refer birds being sucked into the engine as cause.
AspisI think Greece should get future Russian fifth gen. aircraft PAK-FA.But for the interim gap Gripen,EF Typhoon or Rafale are the best options.Because most of the countries in a very near future will renew it’s F-16 fleet with new gen. aircrafts. In my opininion together with this war speculations just the arms exporter countries are earning.Because I don’t see a war threat between Greece and Turkey.Both country are Nato members and the war is far far far away.
Dear turkish friend, for once, i can agree! PAK-FA in deed! But, go tell that to our politicians… As for the rest, i do see a “war threat” , it’s called “casus belli”. You know, that little thing that Turkey has against Greece officially by parliament vote. Being in NATO didn’t stop us from arriving at the brink of war 3 times since 1974. Why we didn’t arrive? Because your goverment wasn’t ready to pay the price, regardless of the result. I mean, Imia 1996. If instead of Greece, it was the Cypriot army involved, would your special forces leave the western Imia islet? I don’t think so… Turkey doesn’t want an all out war yet. She prefers to scare Greece to give what she wants without having to fight. The war is far far away, i agree, because your military, would prefer something like 5 or 10 to 1 in firepower as odds. As long as we maintain a good firepower, your goverments will have second thoughts before pulling the trigger.
Oh, they would like to pull the trigger, but for now, they have to be content with barking but not biting.
A turkish author recollects some quotes of Turkish politicians.
Casus Belli In The Aegean and Its Reflections
The book âCasus Belli In The Aegeanâ was written by Hakan Cem Isiklar and edited by Mete Belovacikli, and published by Umit Publishing a week ago. In addition to many technical details, there are also many important interviews which have never been published before. Some of these interviews are noted below.
Bulent Ecevit (09,03,2005) (Former Prime Minister)
We reminded the problems in theAegean to Turkey.
Relations with Greece could not be overcomed being in âSirtakiâ style.
Mrs. Ciller treated too positively to the Greeks in Kardak Rocks Dispute.
Sukru Sina Gurel (19,01,2005) (Former Minister of Foreign Affairs)
Turkeyâs rights have not been more important than the relations with Greece and the Europe.
EU is concealing itself behind Greece in the issues related to Turkey.
Greece deserved to be disgraced in Ocalan Problem.
The number of Turkish soldiers in Cyprus is related to Turkish Military Service.
Cyprus Island is very important for us even if no Turks live in there.
Secrecy is dangerous during the exploration of discussions.
Onur Oymen (09,12,2004) (Former Ministery of Foreign Affairs Undersecretary and member of Turkish Parliament from CHP)
Greece tried to realize the Sevr Treaty in the Aegean disputes.
Greece is violating the Lausanne Treaty.
Western Countries always supported Greece.
Pangalos: âI am confessing that we created the Kardak Problem.â
Turkish Foreign Ministry learned that NOTAM 714 was abolished from radio in 1980.
If we give Kardak to Greece, in stormy days we canât pass our navy from there.
Tuncer Kilinc (17,01,2005)(Former General Secretary of National Security Agency)
Greece can do nothing to Turkey in military subjects.
We can take back all of the Aegean Islands whenever we want.
Turkish Aegean Army is going to be in that region until Greece give up to extend its territorial waters to 12 nm.
Western countries want to destroy Ataturk and Kemalism in Turkey.
There has been counterrevolution in Turkey since 50 years.
Ismail Cem (08,03,2005) (Former Minister of Foreign Affairs)
I dont think that the solution is very difficult in the Aegean disputes. Solution is political there.
We ruined Greece in Ocalan Problem.
Greece government dismissed some of the ministers for the new vision of Greece in 1999.
In our period, Turkish Army never interfered in Turkish Foreign Policy.
Greece church is source of historical antagonism against Turkey.
Interesting, isn’t it? As for Pangalos, i don’t know if he really said that, but even if he did, it’s out of context. Pangalos was of the opinion, that the local mayor shouldn’t have gone to raise the greek flag on Imia without warning anyone and that the press didn’t handle the issue with responsibility. But, the book if meant for turkish audience, so i understand how “unheard of” theories about Greece come up there (the clichè about the greek church is yet another pearl in that).
Yes, war is far far away. Because Greece doesn’t exercise her full rights and because we still have enough firepower to cause you enough damage, that although some of your politicians dream of the day that you can take “BACK” the Aegean islands, they are not ready to pay the price that will come with them. So, they have to live with the “we can take them back wherever we want” and “Greece can do nothing to Turkey in military matters”, but still, in 1996, you had to withdraw your troops too… Be patient… A 10 to 1 in manpower and 5 to 1 in firepower in some future, will most likely make your politicians more courageous and help them decide to at last solve the Aegean dispute. đ It will be a glorious victory! Even better, a 20 to 1 (like in the good old days of Mehmet the Conqueror). Just to make sure that Greece can really do absolutely nothing to Turkey in military matters”.
Regards
AspisLatest HAF F 16s don’t have CFTs ? Or are those to be installed later ?
They do. Simply they are detachable and there is no reason to always fly around with them on.
HAF F16 Crashed
An F16 Block 50D crashed this morning at 10:33, 8 miles SE of the city of Ioannina (northwestern Greece). The pilot was in a trainning mission and ejected successfully. He was retrieved and sent to the hospital for precautionary reasons. According to the first estimates, the crash was due to birds being sucked into the engine, but an official investigation will make the final report.
http://www.in.gr/news/article.asp?lngEntityID=1020351&lngDtrID=244
Just a quick question, IIRC the Hellenic air force is supposed to choose a fighter sometime late this year?
The Typhoon was a front runner till the Olympics intervened.
Now if the ‘late this year’ decision is still on have the Greek been testing other aircraft such as the Rafale?.
Cheers
Late this year, next year, who knows… There is a competition open, we don’t know when the goverment will decide to close it… Politics you see.
Yes, the Rafale was in Greece for exercises with F16s, many (over 20 according to an article) greek pilots flew with it and some against it.
Rumours say that the probable winner of this round, will be Typhoon (for performance) or F16 B52+ Adv (because HAF wants quick deliveries and it will be integrated much faster than the Typhoon, plus it’s cheaper).
Whoever wins this, will influence the winner of the next order (said to be around 2014). This, because, looking at past history, it is improbable that HAF will go 100% american. So, if we buy american now, the next will probably be a split order. If we buy european now, most probably the next will be american only.
AspisI think that this is most clarifying.
Visual acuity
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See also: Eye examinationTypical Snellen chart used for visual acuity testing.
Visual acuity (VA) is acuteness or clearness of vision, especially form vision, which is dependent on the sharpness of the retinal focus within the eye and the sensitivity of the interpretative faculty of the brain.[1]
VA is a quantitative measure of the ability to identify black symbols on a white background at a standardized distance as the size of the symbols is varied. It is the most common clinical measurement of visual function. In the term “20/20 vision” the numerator refers to the distance in feet from which a person can reliably distinguish a pair of objects. The denominator is the distance from which a person with standard VA would be able to distinguish themâthe distance at which their separation angle is 1 arc minute. The metric equivalent is 6/6 vision where the distance is 6 meters. Twenty feet is essentially infinity from an optical perspective (the difference in optical power required to focus at 20 feet versus infinity is only 0.164 diopters). For that reason, 20/20 vision can be considered nominal performance for human distance vision; 20/40 vision can be considered half that acuity for distance vision and 20/10 vision would be twice normal acuity. The 20/x number does not directly relate to the eyeglass prescription required to correct vision; rather an eye exam seeks to find the prescription that will provide 20/20 vision.
AspisThese videos are funny. There seems to be something defective in the Typhoon. I mean, really defective:
– Typhoons can get a firing position at your tail, but they don’t shoot (jammed fire button). As is worldwide known, the range of Typhoon’s IR missiles, wouldn’t allow to shoot at a front target who is also slower.
– Typhoons can get a firing position at your nose, but it still won’t shoot. Only Sukhois can.
– All others’ jammers and chaffs, work. The Typhoon’s never. Actually, most of the time, the Typhoon’s jammer and chaff/flare dispencer doesn’t work. So it doesn’t even try.
– Other aircrafts manouver to avoid a missile. The Typhoon flies straight on it.
– F35 can dodge missiles and even mobile radar guided AAA fire (ask someone who was ever in such a system to tell you how many seconds after his radar has acquired target, the chances of survival of the enemy aircraft get virtually zero, unless he can jam). Sukhoi can survive missiles.
– Poor Typhoon can’t dodge missiles or bullets.
– F35s can be stealth, but still fired upon by enemy AAA and SAMs, but “you can then counterattack”. Did LM really wanted this part?
– Of course, the F35 not only is stealth, but also has an AIM-9x “regenerating” ability inside the bay, since it seems that it carried nothing underwing, but this doesn’t stop it from firing AIM-9X as well as AG ordnance. Or, it was AIM-9X in a wing pylon, but so stealth, that naked eye can’t detect it.
EADS should really see into that. The Typhoon has serious lacks. Did you see how that Sukhoi jammed immediately the links? That’s how to do it. Did you see how well russian and american chaffs work? Did you see how well the F35 can survive several seconds of mobile AAA without a scratch and the Typhoon can’t survive a Su’s gunfire on it’s tail?
:p
AspisLockeed Martin on the attack. Press conference. Following article is from defencenet (translated as best as i could, leaving the part about current F16 deliveries).
Please don’t get mad at me when (some) of you will disagree with some of the editor’s comments.
Change of Strategy from Lockheed Martin in the greek sale of F16/F35
Change of course in the strategy of LM in the effort of promoting F16/F35 from the american company.
According to what was presented earlier today in press conference the US company, the F35, while not negating the advantages that its stealth characteristics give it, it now puts great importance on the quantity of payload that can be carried in the external stores. This is to say, “stealth is good, but high payload is best”. This is the first time that LM pubblically accepts that the F35 in stealth configuration, in missions of support or air combat, carries limited payload.
The 2nd point where the change of strategy is evident, is the number of aircrafts. According to the data presented, it seems that LM is now oriented in package proposal that predicts: 40 + option for 20 F16 Block 52+ Advanced or Block 60 and afterwards, 60-80 F35. Until today, she was pushing a “small” sale of 20 aircrafts, as that had been registered in declarations of her spokesmen.
In any case, the strategy of “pushing” the sale of F16, either with or without AESA, remains, as a sort of “interim solution” for the fastest possible and as low cost possible coverage of HAF’s needs until 2014, time at which the company has commited to be able to start deliveries of F35 and in 2nd phase, the procurement of F35 for the coverage of needs beyond 2015. For the first time, it was so enfatically presented the capability of the F35 to act as a “first strike” aircraft. The question is whether HAF needs a “first strike” aircraft.
To be more precise, in stealth configuration with a internal playload of about 2,5 tons, the aircraft according to LM is an ideal platform for SEAD. In this operational framework and after the enemy air defence will be destroyed, the aircraft by carrying the most respectful payload of 18500 lbs internally and externally , can then operate as a typical older generation aircraft.
It was particularly impressive the picture of the aircraft loaded with conventional bombs or many air- to air missiles, loaded in external pylons, that were showing an absolutely conventional aircraft, that was supposed to operate in an enviroment of a perfectly disabled enemy air defence. One natural question that comes to mind for example, is, why in 2017, to use a manned aircraft for SEAD and not an UCAV , like the Neuron is. Or, who guarantees the destruction of the enemy air defence with “first strike” and what will happen if the aircrafts get involved in air combat without their stealth characteristics, given the aerodynamic limitations of the aircraft, sacrificed in the altar of “stealth”?
The proposed operational model is obviously taking full advantage of the capabilities and characteristics, but we won’t evade the temptation to note, that from one side, its performance in air combat remains currently a mystery, at least to most people, but it’s also confirmed from the first time from “official source” that the internal “stealth” carrying capability is limited, if not “insufficient”.
As for the price, it was stated the costs that have recently seen the light of press correspond to Low Rate Initial Production aircrafts and so the cost of the industrial production aircraft will be considerably lower.
LM has also submitted a complete proposal to HAF for the upgrade of the entire F16 fleet in a more unified manner:
– F16 Block 30 —> CCIP Lite
– F16 Block 50 —> Block 52+ Advanced or CCIP-GR.
– F16 Block 52+ —> Block 52+ AdvancedIt was also announced the agreement for cooperation of LM and HAI in the C130J Super Hercules program. HAI will get subcontractor work. Details will be announced soon. During the press conference LM “honoured” HAI for the delivery of the 100th rear fuselage of F16 and the 32nd USAF CCIP F16.
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7760&Itemid=49
Aspis…and one more thing needs to be remembered…
I’m not an economist, so I’m not gonna get into figures, but my point will be clear.
USA’s debt toward other world countries permanently grows. Currently the leader is China with 24,07% of foreign debt. The absurd in dealing with USA is the fact that by buying F35, you actually finance the plane (new Chinese fighters), the F35 has been designed to fight against!!!…and they call it global trading…
Cheers, Cola
This is a huge issue. Economics today is largely about trust, conventions and economists’ based limits. This is how about we ‘ve had this global crisis in the first place. Because, figures were all that would count, no matter if the real economy could support them. So the big time managers of multinationals and banks, where investing in stocks (paper) or overstretching their real abilities (like giving loans to everyone, even if he can’t pay back or invest bank money on stocks or bonds). At some point, one king was found to be naked. And then trust started falling. And the “papers” showed that they are papers. And demand collapsed. And the industry had to close, because there is no demand. And so on.
What i want to say. When we will get out of the crisis, it will STILL be about “trust” and “reputation”, “stability” “,capacity to have stable investors, growth , “politics” etc (you are a superpower? we trust you).
What is missing in all of our system? The actual value of the money. The whole system in which we live, is based in above. Theoretically, you can have huge deficits and debts and go on forever with the current system.
Because, our money, doesn’t have real value as used to have. In the Middle Ages, you had 1 gold coin, it was 1 gold coin everywhere and no matter what war would happen. Today, if we were actually go to the banks and state and demand to be given the concrete value of our money, the system will collapse (it’s what happened in a very smaller scale in the current crisis). We will be running for gold again or trade material things (you give me bread, i will give you fish).
If you ask me, globalization was the best idea the Americans could come up with, as you show in your chinese example. They ‘re putting the Chinese into this too. The Chinese current growth largely depends on globalized markets. So they play in the terms of our system. Yes, they do sustain USA, because if they don’t their growth will be reduced rapidly. They ‘re not ready yet to make the big step and ask for the crown. And i don’t know if they will be. So the deficits figures can be of no issue for USA (as long as they don’t become something like 200% of GDP), as long there is trust, demand, political games, etc.
Europe is acting like “pillow” for the US too. There many european banks or enterprises that had invested in the “famous” US bonds and stocks. They didn’t expect the bubble to break, so now part of the damaged “papers” are burning the hands of Europeans.
This is why, the Americans, don’t proceed in the short term to a strategy of cutting down pubblic debt and deficit, but pouring money (water) to the crisis (fire). They will look into the figures after the crisis.
One day USA will lose the crown, just like so many others before her, but that day i think isn’t near yet. And the way we are, if the downfall is ugly and we ‘re not ready, it could bring havoc to the world as we know it today. “Where’s my gold worth of my 10 euro banknote?! I want my gold! Where’s my money!?”
AspisYeah Aspis. And I don’t really blame them for doing it (selling old or export stuff that is). So we (Germans) decided to stop buying their stuff and build our own instead. The Luftwaffe is only operating a few Bell helicopters, the legacy F-4 Phantoms and a few dozen American trainers (at Holloman AFB for jet training purposes in America). We’re even phasing out their weapon systems soon to have our own equipped with the Typhoon. Interestingly our air force is only third after army and navy to get rid of foreign equipment.
If you look at our army and navy inventory, it’s what we do too with newer equipment. Not only because you get the “export” version, but also because it comes with strings attached and they can pressure you politically. And we don’t trust them in case of war. And when something becomes old and we don’t need it, we can donate it to Cyprus when it’s not american. Cyprus has some french tanks/APCs and other material that is ex-greek that we don’t need and have donated it to them. The French didn’t make us any problems about it. We tried to give about 7-9 M110 artillery pieces and 2 Huye helicopters (!!!!) to Cyprus for free and as soon as they saw them operated by Cypriots (at a parade) they made official diplomatic protest and forced us to take them back to Greece. Huyes!!! It sounds like a joke, doesn’t it? The only US material on the island in the greek cypriot side, is operated by the greek contingent of 900 men. When the Americans see “cypriot” and not “greek” uniform next to US material, they go ballistics.
In the airfoce it’s difficult to become “US-free”, because the $ has fallen to the euro and in the past, only the Mirage was for us adeguate, but more costly and not so good in multirole. And we have many US weapons… Also the dogma to this point was “know what the Turks use, and then buy something additional that they don’t know”. Plus we have to see how well this stealth export will work out. In any case, i don’t think we will be become “USA-free” in airforce in the forseable future. With the current prices, americans give “good bang for buck”. The best would be to go russian for low cost/high effectiveness solution, but we are not ready yet politically to do that step.
The majority of greek military addicts, believes that the future front line in HAF will be european + F35. And most bets are on the Typhoon. There is a minority, that thinks that we won’t buy any european. But i have my doubts on that.
If we do go for a european too, the possibility that the Typhoon isn’t the one, will only be if Sarkozy comes up with a very good proposal (exchange all Mirage for Rafale) and they give good price and warranties for life cycle costs and upgrades, because we don’t want to remain with Rafales too expensive to upgrade, like we are now with the older M2000. So Dassault must make a VERY good offer this time. OR, maybe the Rafale’s fate could change if Turkey enters the EADS consortium. I don’t know, this becomes a purely political issue and i don’t know how our goverment would see it.
AspisSo yes, buying EF is pretty much open deal. You know what you’re buying and you know what to expect (more/less)…Greece for example, can ship their EF to Bari (Italy) for “official” service if need be. At worst, it’s 350km by sea and thats about 12 hours, by medium speed cargo ship. So, you send it in the evening and it’s on the service line in the morning and flies back by evening (depending on damage amplitude).
For the Typhoon (and Rafale too), i think that this won’t be a problem at all. I am quite certain that HAI which currently services all our aircrafts locally, will require all necessary know how and we will serve them all in Greece. I ‘ m pretty sure that it will be the first greek demand about “local industry partecipation” and “offsets” and i don’t think EADS would have any problem with that.
Now for the F35, i wouldn’t bet my life on it. Probably the Americans will be quite secretive for their RAM tech. In Greece there is a rumour circulating, that if you want to do “regular” maintance to RAM, only Italy will be the place to bring the F35 to have it. I don’t know what’s the deal with the paint either. I am sure, that even if it’s the “export stealth” , Americans wouldn’t want for just every client to be able to put its hands in their “top tech” and “secret” items. And “how often does the stealth require maintance to remain well… stealth”? This is another question, since we fly the aircrafts on a regular basis. Sending them to Italy to get their paintjob and replacement of “withered” RAM plates, doesn’t sound very ideal situation, neither for the wallet , nor for operational availability. I would be greatful if someone could tell me that this story with the Italians is not true.
How much it takes for C-130 to get to any country in Europe from Eurofighter plant with, let’s say, 2 new EJ200 engines and how much it takes to come from USA? Plus, Eurofighter GmbH manufactures planes on many different locations, so if, in case of eventual war, one factory gets overloaded (or even attacked!!!), the other one can take over.
Normally we have a “war reserve” of spares. Now , should that one not be enough or surprisingly destroyed, the question becomes another “Will actually USA send us new”? With europeans, we can hope more that one of the 4 (or even the Austrians, under the table) or Rafale (in case we should take it) will send us what we will ask for.
I do believe that will buy F35, but as for in what numbers it’s up to HAF. And i am pretty sure that both HAF and the goverment, will want european too, whatever that may be.
And last, but not least, is unit system and industrial standard. Centimeters and inches, also play their role. Not once, have I heard “where the hell is that “twoInch” key?” when we needed to disassemble (for maintenance) some american weapon system (American BOFORS 40mm guns, etc…)
For the F-16 (let alone F35), the procedure is more complicated and I fear that F35’s level 3 maintenance could well prove to be a nightmare.Cheers, Cola
That shouldn’t play so much role, because we ‘re used to US aircrafts, so… It was more of a shock when we bought russian for the first time. đ We couldn’t read what was written, we had to use interpreters with the russian engineers that came to Greece, translate russian manuals to english or greek because their technology was unknown to us and so on. But they are even more cost-effective than buying american at the prices they sell, so it was ok.
AspisThere’s also another aspect in the “F35 price” vs “Typhoon price” (or Rafale for what matters). If the $ returns back to a 1:1 ratio with euro (USA exits the crisis first or decides a more stronger $ is now needed or the future US administrations start to revert the Bush administration’s economic blunder and global markets put back more faith in the $) , the F35 price in the future, may skyrocket for us compared to a Typhoon price. Because no matter how it goes, we use the euro, the Germans use the euro. So, payments are something that can’t fluctuate. We will always know what to expect. And this is also true for future additional orders. More or less, we know how expensive the Typhoon is in terms of economic affordability will be in the future. Life cycle calculation is more certain to be reliable. This won’t change as long as we have the same currency as the Germans.
Currently, the US aircrafts in general, can count on a particular attractiveness, because the $ is low to the euro. But this can change any time in the future and can potentially become a headache in the long run.
AspisThis plane will never ever by cheaper than the Typhoon, ever!
Just between you and me, we (greek enthusiasts), believe the same. At BEST, it may cost fly away as the Typhoon. And we also believe, that the “baby care” of the the RAM alone and inspections to make sure you got the “stealth back right as it was supposed to”, will make life cycle costs be of “new generation” in deed. For not adding other types of scepticism (for us, USAF is another story) about the F35 in general ,as i have no intention of watching the “cavalry attack” from US posters.
Anyway, LM presented the F35 to HAF, but from what we read in magazines, there wasn’t even an approximative price mentioned. We will see… Both the price and the aircraft. There’s a proverb in Greece. “Never buy a pig in a sack”. We need dear LM to tell us fly away costs, life cycle costs, if the aircraft can be locally supported or periodically it must travel to “certified” foreign facilities, what’s the deal with the export version characteristics, etc. Because the Americans traditionally give you the “full package” only where their aircraft has grown old. The other time, in radars and engined they give you the “export version” (aka degraded version. For the first batch of B52+ HAF has asked for a higher thrust engine, which could in deed be fitted in the aircraft. Request denied. Only now that the F16 is “old” they are willing to give you the “complete package”.
AspisThe F-35 isn´t quite F-22 standard either since it can´t supercruise. I read somewhere that Lockheed Martin defined supercruise as necessary for a 5th generation fighter. Does that make the F-35 a 4,5 gen or let´s say a 4,9 gen fighter? :confused:
This is one of most humourous comments on generations i have seen so far. đ (I mean it in a positive way). After the “4.5”, now we will start having “0.1” increments, according to what you add. Can you imagine the fun?
– Mine is better, because it’s 4.7 gen, yours is 4.6! Our new EW suite certainly worths the distance from 4.5!
– Are you out of your mind? The new electronics we added, make us certainly 4.8 if you are 4.7! (AFM forum 15 years from now).
For the amount of weaponry the F35B carries more like a 1 Gen fighter….
LOL! That’s another nice one. The “double life of F35”. “5th generation when with 2 belly bombs , but with 1st gen carrying capacity”. Or, “3.5 generation if you want to use 3rd or 4th gen carrying capacity”. :p
The first multirole and multigeneration aircraft. And if you forget/delay the do proper maintentance in RAM material and RAM paint, then you can have much more funny combinations! “LM loves you”.
AspisI was giving Pakistan as an example here , the idea that the Executive body in US is not always the final authority when it comes to foreign policy and decision making process , they are binded by US Congress laws and depending on the circumstances the laws might override the executive power.
As long as US gives unconditional legal and political guarantees that the MMRCA purchase will not be affected by any kind of sanctions during its life cycle of operation , there will always be a factor of sanctions hanging on our head.
Indian and US policy and the way they look at the world might not always concur and some congress man at some point of time might bring in some Bill which might be detrimental .
Thanks for explaining. I agree. Especially since you are not NATO and this is your first potential purchase , hence you have no previous cooperation with the 2 potential american vendors, you should ask for guarantees and double check the contract.
Ironically a today greek newspaper, although this is not verified yet, wrote that the LM has put the EW suite on the delivering aircrafts already, while HAF was expecting first to test them in Greece and then add them and seems that the Turks have been set as “friendly”. Not 100% certain if it’s true, but it could be and this will mean protest to LM, change this to “hostile”, etc. We will solve this, but it may cost time before it works as should.
So, yes, do make sure you get clauses that will protect you.
AspisNot if you consider the price. EF offers nothing important over the F-16, whike it costs more as F-35.
Ho ho… Now wait for the storm to come! :p Brace yourself!
I don’t intend to get into this, it’s more dangerous than politics, but about the price, how can you know the price of the F35?? LM doesn’t know it… Actually nobody really knows what it can do.
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