A nice read in turkish newspaper, about the how the Greeks, have managed to recently bring “settlers” to Agathonisi (what a coincidence, the island that since January they fly over), 2-3 every night (!!!), to arrive to have 70 inhabitants, in order to steal it from the Turks! It says that greek guarding outpost on it is illegal , hence the island must be set under UN juristiction (so that Turkey can then advance the claim without a single shot).

As it says, according to international treaties, the island is… disputed! (But of course it is! That’s why international Treaties are for!)

Google translation

Fugitive of the island does not fit

The tale of Donkey Island

MURAT İLEM-Republic

Athens-Aegean sea in the middle of a small, even a tiny island that the fate of the world drawn on the formation. Look at the map is considered as a point only. Agathonis Greek name, English name “Donkey Island” as part of this land, the last two months constantly on the agenda of the organs in the Greek press. An island very close to Turkey that the Greek law enforcement on the lack of power, about 70 Greek citizens in the life yet to capture the interest is increasing. Do not misconstrue the interest is not Greek, Turkish people are coming by merchants.

In recent years the focus of human trafficking from Turkey to the state of the fugitive Agathonis (Donkey) Island residents over the phrase you are sitting on nails. Night or day, for a time out of dozens, even hundreds of people to host international (!) Have exhausted sick. Two thousand dollars or Euros to the Turkish people who merchant Afghanistan, Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan or any world citizen, is to breath at Donkey Island. So almost all the island s first stop smuggled migrants. 75 of 70 people lived on the island last event of the world citizens have occurred as a result of taking cover. Hungry and thirsty for days waiting for the day to remove the contraband ashore to the island will cover at the door based on the Greeks, and not at what I found to receive and devour had swallowed. In the past, the island of goats, chickens, sheep, rabbit, pigeon that is, until today no longer be reduced also. In general, rubber boots, truck tire inner (şambrel), three-five-meter boat and prefer, but sometimes people have a heart of merchants to the (!) Come with eight to ten meters off the boat to the island with its development of a kind of leakage can not be blocked. Situation to continue such status through the UN in the island countries of all world citizens will. The reason is simple, can not be placed on the island of Greek official power. According to international agreements of the disputed territory as part of the island aidiyet because afraid of reaction against Turkey’s neighbors, citizens, so far only 70 people place. You’ll understand the island’s indigenous peoples, such as from Turkey as there are leaks.

Greek state to win the island was bittilerle, each term in order to annex territory in the first two or three families, then the other half a night on the island are not bringing place. Moreover, the Greek ship the end of the month, suffered in a period of time due to aksa trying to maintain lives were in great distress. Built and fate of the Greek man to deal with leakage problems never end only. Basically from danger, believe that the future of Turkey. Every minute of every day over the heads of the text on the wings of the Turkish war planes had even memorized.

The Greek press exaggerating the incident, the island’s more on the Turkish aircraft flying seagull takes you forward. Here is who belongs to the international agreements that specify the fate of the island and the same 70 people who share the story of the Greek citizens. l

03.05.2009

Original:
http://www.umudadogru.com/dergi/tr/?id=308&kat=26

We bring the inhabitants 2-3 at a time during night! Like thieves! Because if we were to bring them with the morning ship, what would change? JESUS CHRIST!

This is the port of Agathonisi:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cOqmWtOgGkg/SGgBJ4ZyVJI/AAAAAAAAAEg/wdR5NAdhHZw/s400/DSC01543.JPG

I don’t know, did we also built the houses at night 1 at a time quickly, so that the Turks wouldn’t see us, or were we bold and brave enough to build them in daylight??? 😮

This as a reply to the turkish friend that was swearing that they would never want to take an island. Don’t worry! They will tell you it was never greek in the first place. 😀 😀 😀

Do you actually believe that BS in Turkey??? But of course! The “cannon fodder” GI always needs to believe that is on the right side. Articles like this, are needed, so that the pubblic opinion doesn’t grow “cold” on the issues and so when and if the time arrives they can remember all the greek provocations and justify the war… How many disputed islands can someone let the Greeks settle after all? There is a limit even in the patience of the most patient Turk!

This is the story of Agathonisi. Autonomous community since 1954… Or according to the Turks, it was only a goat playground.

The Agathonisi in antiquity according to ancient historians, authors and geographers called YETOUSSA. Thucydides calls Tragaia, Strabo Tragaiai the islands – and includes along with the adjacent islands and islets that surround it (Kounelonisi, Katsagani, Neronisi, Round, Pitta etc.) – Plutarch mentions as tragic and Stephanos Byzantine Tragaiai. His name, as the most likely scenario, is an island with thorns (Agkathonisi) as reported by the Agatonissi browsers. The current name used in the last fifty years and to rename the text of the sign all island residents. During the first period proelliniki residents Tragaias (Agathonisi) were the Kares. In historic times inhabited by Dorians who were expelled in turn by the Ionians of Miletus. This is illustrated by the remains of ancient buildings and settlements of these periods. The home was Tragaia walker Theogitou of Tragaioti philosopher, who was a pupil of Aristotle and taught in the peripatetic school of philosophy in Athens. Due to the location of the island inhabitants were many witnesses naval battle. In 494 BC Views of the sea battle between the Persian ie fleet of Darius and the rebels, assisted by Ionon ambiguous. In 74 BC, as Plutarch tells us, the Emperor of Rome, Julius Caesar, pleontas from Italy to Asia Minor, was caught by the pirates and moved to Tragaias Farmakonisi islet, where he was detained. The island is owned by the Byzantine state. Because of the purity of the Greek language and the many Byzantine findings, draw the conclusion that current residents might be descendants of Byzantine political exile. In 1087 the island contained in the jurisdiction of Patmos where the bull by Saint Christodoulos is holder of the islands and builds the monastery of Patmos. The habitation of the island was not always this constant until the 14th century was listopeiraton cache. In 1522 together with the other Dodecanese enter the sovereignty of the Turks. On 29 April 1912 Italian Turkish succeed. On 8-9-1943, the Germans occupied the island which was provisionally released. On 7 March 1948 is the formal incorporation with Greece. In 1954 the autonomous community is Agathonisi until then belonged administratively to Patmos

http://www.greeklodgings.gr/gr/agathonissi/gr_agathonissi.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agathonisi

For military enthusiasts, here is how you can partecipate in a Special Ops team, that secretevely arrives to the island, without being seen by the Turks (hush hush ferry):

https://www.ferries-greece.com/greek_islands/dodecanese/agathonisi_ferries/agathonisi.asp

Garanteed thrilling experience, 100% turk-proof stealth. They never know you were ever there. 😀

YES! We have a Klingon cloaking device dear Turks. We have been cloaking the “settlers” from you for so long! Only the Italians and Germans had penetrated the cloak and seen the “settlers”. So beware of our Bird of Prey!

Welcome to the 21st centure “mature” world. Next month Erdogan is coming to Athens, right? I hope he only expects flowers from our Moron (i mean our PM) and not from some happy crowd.

You know the funniest of all? That most probably, Greece is the no1 important client of german military industry in Europe. Ironic isn’t it? You complain that we are poor and we don’t have industry, but when our tourismous money buy the weapons that give $ to german industry, then it’s OK money, isn’t it?

You know, Greece and Germany have very different histories. And we still have different problems. If you were to read more history, you would understand it. Or, to understand the starting point, try to found more about the “Ottoman industry revolution and renaissance” and try to compare it to the “European industry revolution and Renaissance”. When you find about both, you will understand more.

Or if you are too lazy to do that, don’t you find it weird to say the least, that Turkey, a 70 mln country, an empire up to one century ago, is still unable to develop a tank of her own, while Germany has being making them for decades? Now, do you suppose that the areas that were under Ottoman rule, enjoyed somewhat a better development than the Ottomans themselves?

Why do you think Israel has lower than half the GDP of Belgium? Have you ever thought of that? I mean, the Israelis are intelligent people, not like Greeks.

Bye.

Maybe should we take a look on the greek and turk BIP!
$324,6 Bn (Mrd) Greek and Turk $906,5Bn (Mrd).

Can you explain me what’s the “BIP”?

A quick look at the airforces of Turkey and Greece would seem to contradict the idea that one buying an aircraft would prevent the other from buying the same thing (e.g.F-4, F-16). In fact, it may cause a little bit of keeping up with the joneses.

This has to do with the fact that US aircrafts come with very good cost-performance ratio. It’s hard not to buy them.

Besides the F4s were coming very cheap. But Greece did also buy Mirage (since the Mirage F1 era) and in the F16s we got differences in blocks and numbers and all greek F16s have different EW suites than the turkish ones.

I don’t say that in airforce in particular is impossible to have the same as the Turks. But i think the Rafale’s chances would increase.

Turkey has not signed any deal yet. They only signed a letter of intent and a memorandum of understanding. So no, right now they don’t have any legally binding deal to buy a single F-35. This by the way applies to literally all expected customers, because the F-35 is not even close to being through the testing process. It’s still a prototype.

So if they drop the F-35 they can easily afford the EF. But I somehow can’t see them becoming a real full-fledged partner in the consortium. The only ones being actively invited into the consortium were India iirc.

If you think that the Turkish generals will drop the F35, you don’t know them. 😀 And despite the fact the turkish pubblic opinion is suspicious of USA wanting to harm turkish interests, in reality it’s Turkey’s best ally. And this is why Turkey has 100% US aircrafts and will continue to have.

I will tell you something. Turkey COULD order the Typhoon too. But they will cut down other projects. I am not sure how the generals will like that.

So what? Both are NATO-Members and both should learn we are in the 21. century or both should better fly this sample!

Yes, yes, easy making the smart ass now that the Soviets collapsed. Oh, that’s right! 10 more years, and you would be in the 21st centure still with the Wall and all those US soldiers in your soil because the Soviets MAYBE would roll over you, despite the hundred of US nukes that were protecting you. 😀 So now that the Soviets collapsed, you can go show the “21st century” maturity, by bombing Talibans. Yes, now you can go show the Talibans how superior the Typhoon is and how much better your pilots are compared to the Afghans. That should teach them a lesson! Seems already the Star Trek human civilization, where not only wars but also money doesn’t exist. Oh, wait, wars do exist even in the Star Trek society, it’s just that they are called Romulans, Klingons and Borg.

Watch and learn, young man. Watch and learn how shortsighted your view of thinking you can predict your future.

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

The “realities” come and go , because there is always some fool that thinks “now am i am the safe, what can possibly move me from my throne!”… Go ask the Soviets about your 21st centure and your certainties. Why is the 21st century so different than the others? Because of the better rhetorics you use in order to justify your scopes? Yes, now it’s not about getting the oil, it’s about democracy and crap like that. Go on live in your own dream world and thank God the Soviets didn’t see it coming either, so that now you can have the eastern Germany back in.

The models you depict aren’t used in HAF. Ours are these:

http://assets.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/880294_b.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i5N-p-liZQg/R9TtZeHKQNI/AAAAAAAAApU/oRjNhGSoNaI/s400/koulouma-791231.jpg

100% greek made, huge experience, trainning is constant, even small kids once a year learn to operate them. 😀 And unlike your defective proposal, they actually take off!

Nice post Aspis (as ever)

My question is that if it is worded like that then that would not make much sense as the Americans are trying to sell more weapons to India.

IMHO, the wording must be wrong. The journalists must have not presented it 100% faithfully.

What we know about US policy in weapons is this:

– Where they can be a pain, is with the end user certificates. They will no way in hell allow you to sell old US equipment to another country, if they have political issues with that. For example, we are not allowed to sell to Cyprus ANYTHING american, even if it was to be a WWII bazooka. On the other sides, the turkish army on Cyprus uses 99% US equipment. France on the contrary has no such similar objections (for Cyprus).

– They don’t flat out cut you the support unless you become a clear enemy to them (they are not fools, they want the $), but they do use support (spares or missiles) as a means of political pressure. For example, in a period that they wanted to put us pressure, the AH-64 spares were delayed for some months and we had to reduce the regular flight hours per month, in order not to use our “wartime emergency stock” of spares. Officially, this was caused for “technical problems” and “mistakes in handling the request”. Unofficially, it’s part of a series, which is why we try not to depend in 100% US material and have alternative vendors.

– If their political plans for whatever reason are against your interests, of course they will cut down any support/bomb you/whatever. Think of how the Iranian F4s and F14s ended up. Iran best friend with Shah, Iran worst enemy after. Saddam good when fighting Iran, Saddam evil later. Talibans good when fighting Soviets, Talibans evil now. One dictator is good if he is a pro-american dictator, he is evil if he is anti-american dictator. They will “sell” you without second thoughts.

So, the reputation of mistrust towards the Americans, isn’t without foundation. In the army and navy, our more recent equipment is 80% european, exactly because we don’t trust them.

What use would the P 8I be if you cannot use it against Chinese/Pakistani subs in terms of war ?

There is simply no way they can stop you using them. What are they going to do? Declare you rogue state and come and shoot down your US aircrafts? Look at Iran.

I think its a bit of scaremongering by a large section of Indian Armed forces and public who don’t trust the Americans.

In the worst case, that their interests will get 100% contrary of yours, they will cut you down any missile sale and US upgrade problem. Since you get TOT, spare parts shouldn’t be a problem for you.

Let me get this straight. It’s not that the Americans are the devil and the other vendors are “warm hearted” or “ethical” angels. Simply, the US , is a superpower and wants to act as one, setting her nose in every corner of the planet. This means, she has interests everywhere, and in order to serve them, she has to screw someone from time to time. It’s impossible to want to control oil and gas flow and not screwing some countries… So, this is why US can become the more “mistrusted” vendor.

The British Lord Palmerston, once said, “Britain has no permanent friends. She has only permanent interests”. Keep this in mind. At the time Britain was the empire, now it’s the US, they think in the same way.

In the case that the US policy should turn 100% against you, you should expect freezing of all weapons sales and US-made upgrades. In the support sector, you should be self-sufficient with the TOT you get.

There was only one bridge in 1974.

Even better. The story remains the same, confirmed from multiple high rank sources both in military and politics. I am influenced from a current discussion in a greek forum, where we talk about the bridges of today.

Could it be that Turkish membership in the Eurofighter consortium could somehow influence the Typhoon’s possibilities of sales to Greece?

If we know about it before we order, it is possible that yes, it would influence the sale’s chances in Greece. In a negative way. Maybe just about what Sarkozy would hope for.

Also, are there other neighbours of Turkey that may reconsider purchase of the Typhoon, if Turkey gets full access to the Typhoons source code?

Let’s see…
– Syria. Buys russian.
– Armenia. Same as above.
– Iran. Same as above.
– Irak…
– Cyprus. Doesn’t have an airforce.

Does the 40/80 figure indicate a possible sale of 40 Typhoons to Turkey, with an option for another 40? Can Turkey really become a full consortium member by buying only 40 a/c? I wonder what Saudi Arabia, which bought 72 Typhoon will say about that?

PS thanks to tuaf1 for providing the links.

Apart the implications you mention and how other countries with more aircrafts would be pissed, you should also ask “given the current economical circumstances, can Turkey afford to enter the program, given that she must also pay for 100 F35?”. I will answer you the question. Yes, she can, but she will be forced to cut other of the scheduled projects.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/30803477

Note: I don’t know if that site quoting 60 for Greece knows something that we don’t know, but AFAIK, HAF’s plans are for 30-40 aircrafts for this order. Unless they expect a 40+ option for 20 , which is probable and most probably the option at some point will be excercised.

Exactly!!

From what I can make out Dassault/Thales have put their foot down and insisted that only a Dassault approved fit ie Thales supplied Mirage 2000-V RDY, EW,etc fit is acceptable.

This killed the chances of getting Elta, Elbit/Elisra into the deal and doing a customized upgrade (at cheaper cost).

Now the deal is in infinite cost negotiation – its been stuck on price for far too long.

I am not surprised. If we are to believe “forum rumours”, the main reason that we don’t jump immediately in the Rafale wagon once more, is the upgrade cost (plus missiles prices and spares). We ‘ve been Dassault client since 1974 and this is the first time that we don’t just order the “new toy” with direct procurement. Because it’s not that we aren’t satisfied by the aircrafts themselves. We are. But this thing with costs, is getting out of hand. We bought some new M2000-5, upgraded a few M2000 to -5 and we still have 20 in a limbo, not knowing whether to upgrade or not , because of the $$$ required.

Your story is similar with the difference that you could put non-french items for the upgrade and they don’t let you… So we ‘re back to square 1, that you find the upgrade cost too high.

According to the rumours, this has pissed HAF and doesn’t want the Rafale. True or not i don’t know, but when in 2 countries you hear similar stories…