pardon my ignorance on this, but what version of the F-16 is LM offering to the HAF? is it going to be a Block 60 version or a follow-on order for more Block 52s ?

Probably both. Most press articles simply refer generically to an “F16 offer”. Initially, it was only the Block 52+ Adv. Some months later, there was a LM spokesman saying that they offer the Block 60 too. I wouldn’t be surprised if they had a sort of custom made solution on the table. By that i mean, something in between. For example the first batch of Block52+ isn’t exactly the same as the 2nd batch we are getting. The latter ones have some enhancements, for which we use the designation “Adv”.

I forgot something else. Selling the Dash-5, which are brand new, is something that HAF isn’t fond of the idea. Also, selling the M2000 EGM/BGM, is something that would be possibly difficult. We tried to sell the MirageF1, we couldn’t find a buyer. And the M2000EGM/BGM, have now more than 15 years of service with many flight hours in interception missions over the sea and Super530D/Magic/AIM39 as their main weapons. For an airforce with no support structure for it, it’s not convenient economically to buy that, instead of cheap F16s. Thinking about it, France herself, didn’t want to include them in the Rafale exchange deal…

While in our case, the support infrastructure is existent for years, there is the possibility to upgrade them or, in case we don’t they can still act as anti-ship squadron with secondary A2A role.

Thanks for you sharing your take on it. I’m a new member as well.

Welcome to both of us then. 🙂

As far as I know, HMS *IS* integrated/certified on Rafale (from 3 vendors), one just needs to “sign on the dotted line”. So that is a non-issue. Likewise, everything else (radar, countermeasures) seems to work fine and nobody is complaining there.

I have heard of one helmet dropped by french airforce because if was too heavy and a second because of costs. However, assuming that all 3 of these are integrated and “ready”, how come the French don’t present ANY of them to foreign customers, for advertising purposes alone? Surely they can arrange to have a couple of helmets just for exhibition to foreign customers! I can assure you, that french Rafale never came to Greece with a functioning helmet. Was it presented to Switzerland? I read they presented the Damocles pod in all advertized modes, the FSO in all possible modes too, but no helmet. Why? Could it be that they aren’t as ready as one would hope? The radar is also an issue. France, did offer us the AESA radar that is under development, since our pilots weren’t impressed by the current P-ESA radar. But, this also implicates a chance of initial problems. But this is something that HAF may evaluate on her own criteria.

About France buying Iris-T, I put that smiley face there for a reason ;), though when France needs to replenish Mica stores, if Iris-T is available, cheaper, and integrated (and Rafale has had some export success to bolster French egos), I’d put a REMOTE chance on it happening :rolleyes:. In any case, I was mainly thinking about Brasil, India, & UAE as France doesn’t need to replenish AAM stocks for the Rafale in the immediate future. I don’t really think Eurofighter is well placed for any of those contests, so certification on Rafale would be net gains for Iris-T if things developed that way – thus HAL might have a case for larger proportion of profits (not workshare, though HAL might share the certification work alongside Dassault).

There is no doubt in my mind, that certification of IRIS-T would have benefited export chances of the Rafale. The same goes for Amraam. But still, there are too many variables in to this. Too many uncertainties. What if France doesn’t manage to export? What if France and/or the possible export user isn’t interested for many years to come, into using Iris-T? What if France instead of using Iris-T eventually, decides to develop a… “Magic III”? If you add these uncertainties, it is most likely, that HAF can benefit from other vendors, in making some more “secure” deals.

About the M2K’s, another poster (HGP) claimed Hellenic Air Force has “scheduled” to upgrade ALL non-Dash 5 Mirage2000’s to that configuration, though I couldn’t find any source for that… :confused: That was part of my question about the Iris-T’s, whether the system-architecture of Dash 5’s and Rafale are similar enough to make a dual-certification (allowing Greece to standardize on Iris-T with entire modern fleet – F-16, M2K, Rafale) easy to accomplish at little additional cost (and possibly none to HAF).

AFAIK, there is no official announcement OR schedule. It is known since 2007, that HAF in her “wish list” has put the upgrade of the remaining 2000EGM/BGM and possibly the activation of the option for 3 more Mirage2000-5 Mk2. But, there is a difference between HAF’s “wish list” and what becomes reality at the end. It’s about program priority and available funds. For example, years ago, in HAF’s wish list, there were tankers (air-refuelling) included. This was however lower in priority and so it has yet to happen. AFAIK, there is no official goverment statement about a request or known negotiations for the upgrade of the remaining 2000EGM/BGM.

If you ask HAF pilots, they would like F-22. But this isn’t going to happen any time soon. :p So, the fate of the Mirage2000 is AFAIK still to be decided. They can be a contract to upgrade them within a year or after 7 years or… never.

Whether the -5 can be so compatible with the Rafale, as to make a “2 in 1” certification, i don’t know. From our experience, french aircrafts, although have served a strategical purpose in HAF (both operationally and politically), when it comes to weapons certification, can be a pain. The MirageF1 was certified in AIM-9P series sidewinders, but couldn’t carry the M for example. The Mirage2000EGM, can’t carry the MICA or SCALP, but can carry the AIM.39. The Dash 5, can carry the MICA and SCALP, but not the AIM.39.

So, here we have yet another uncertainty, if we look at past experience.

For all the historical (and logical) reasons you mention, I certainly see why the Air Force would not want to cover certification costs, but the increased sales possibilities (cheaper Iris-T seems attractive for other potential Rafale buyers) seem solid enough that it may be attractive for Dassault and Iris-T consortium to share together…???

The Iris-T , once certified, would in deed be attractive, i think. But that’s only one part of the equation. The other contenders of the contract, have given their proposals too. Which we don’t know what exactly they are, but they exist allright. There is a huge list of technical evaluation criteria (over 400) which, combined with HAF’s evaluation of the aircraft as a whole, the industrial offsets and political circumstances, will give the final victor. My personal belief, is that both HAF and the goverment, each for his own reasons, would have liked to continue with a french line inside the airforce. French aircrafts are known to our technicians, relations with Dassault are good, politics too, but there must have been something gone wrong along the way in the past, that made it now difficult to go french again.

IMHO, the french should have proposed the Rafale instead of the Dash-5. Now the issue with having 2000 and 2000-5, wouldn’t exist. And there have been some articles, which report HAF being quite happy with the 2000-5 and especially its radar and electronic suite, which also said that wants to have good numbers too. This is why the exchange of brand new 2000-5 for fewer Rafales was rejected.

I also think, that as usual, the Rafale would have a better chance, if it was already carrying a JHMCS and capability of using our current US missiles in A2A and A2G. They are cheaper and we have them in quantities. For example, for our Mirage (either 2000 or Dash 5), we have no A2G missile, with the sole exception of the SCALP. Because they were costing much more than their US counterparts. The Typhoon consortium, seems more active in the field of weapons certification, because its 4 main members have various missiles and so requirements, which cover our requirements too more easily. The same applies for the F16.

But if they don’t go for Rafale, I agree buying F-16 Bk. 52/60 now and JSF when available is the most viable route. If Rafale can’t resolve it’s problem areas in the near future, I don’t think they will by the time JSF is available, and I don’t think Eurofighter will make it in either time-frame, given the “65% AtG” weighting. I guess I don’t see the weapons issues with Rafale as “all negative” as much as opportunities to address these issues, which, assuming upgrades of all M2K to Dash 5 and integration with Iris-T, would let the Air Force make the most of the French hardware they already have. Otherwise, if HAF is serious about standardizing on Iris-T, they should really look into selling their entire M2K fleet (including -5’s) and buying more Bk.52/60s. In light of HAL participation in Neuron, getting to a point where cooperation with France fully works instead of perpetually living with it’s shortcomings, seems like a positive outcome to aim for.

I have read about the 65% use in A2G too, but i would take it with a pinch of salt. There are too many rumours about this procurement and too little fact. Unless one can see the 400+ criteria, the rest can be journalistic conjecture and promotion. Because the press isn’t impartial about this. There are articles in the press gently but steadily bashing one aircraft and promoting another.

The Dash-5 aren’t going to be sold anytime soon… HAF is happy with them, the radar of the Dash-5 has longer range compared to the current Rafale’s radar and they have less of 1 year of use. It is also not about standardization simply by eliminating aircraft types. If standardization was the only purpose, we should do what the Turks do: Do no competitions at all, buy always american and have a fleet with identical types like the Turks.

The whole issue about buying french aircrafts in the past, was both political and operational.

-Politically, it meant that USA would not be the only supplier in HAF. It also meant, that in a case of war, we wouldn’t risk having all our fleet grounded for whatever reasons.

-Operationally, it meant, introducing an aircraft and weapons combination, for which the Turks knew nothing about or at least, knew what we allowed them to know. We know for example how good the sidewinder and F16 radars are too jamming. The Turks don’t know that about Mirage, MICA, MagicII. Or, for example, our Mirage, it is said, that never use active jamming in encountering turkish aircrafts. HAF (and the greek army in general), will always have numeric disadvantage. This, you can try to balance, with trainning, use of unknown to the enemy systems, tactics that complicate the nature of the threat. The Mirage, fit in this philosophy, in that they provide a partially unknown system, which complicates the nature of the threat (in combination with our US aircrafts and missiles and US/european/russian SAM systems). Of course, having 3 types of french aircrafts in small numbers, wouldn’t be a compromise between standardization and introducing new/complicated threats, but introducing logistic headaches for no reason too.

So, the final choice, as usual, will be an average between HAF’s satisfaction and political goals. If the goverment, insists on the line of having dissimilar aircrafts, sooner or later, we must buy Rafale or Typhoon too, to continue the “Mirage” tradition. If on the other hand, the goverment decides that total US dependency isn’t bad, we will go for a more US standardization. The MirageEGM/BGM, if not upgraded, at some point will have to be retired. Then the only non-US aircraft left, will the Mirage2000-5Mk2. All the rest will be “made in USA”, unless we order something european before that happens. All this must also be put in the equation. If we buy only F16s now, it will mean, that unless we buy some european in 2015, soon our airforce will be “made in USA” for the biggest part. This is a political issue that will also have weight in the future evolution of HAF’s inventory. Personally i am in favor of maintaining a “european wing” inside HAF and i hope our politicians will do so. Either the Typhoon or the Rafale, either in this purchase or in the next one, we must buy european too.

Unfortunately, the current goverment is shaking, it’s currently in a long agony, desperately trying a way to avoid defeat in the elections. By extending the agony however, the only thing that accomplishes, is that in most sectors, the functioning of the state has slowed down. In the specific issue of defence, things are paralyzed. At this pace, before we know it, we will be talking about merging this and the next order because of the delay.

Apparently HMS are currently available for the Rafale, even if France has chosen not to invest in this capability for their Rafale fleet at this time. Thales, Sagem and Israeli HMS have been stated to be available on Rafale, and even if they are more “primitive” than JHMCS (for example), they completely fulfill the stated requirements of the Hellenic Air Force. (their benefits for both AtG and AtA are clear)

The main other non-political :rolleyes: factor I see re: Rafale and Greece is the weapon integration, particularly Iris-T which Greece already uses for F-16s. Besides having some degree of superiority over Mica IR within the short-range envelope, it’s signifigantly cheaper than the longer-range Mica. My question is, given Greece is also a partner in the Iris-T program, what perspective is there for Iris-T integration on Rafale? (if parallel integration with M2K-5’s would present little additional cost over Rafales alone, that might also present a desirable scenario)

For Dassault, having more missiles types integrated might help them sell more planes.
Equally, it stands to reason that Greece/HAL might be able to negotiate an agreement with Diehl/Saab, et al, to obtain a higher proportion of the profit on any future sales of Iris-T to Rafale users (India, UAE, Brazil, France :rolleyes: ) if they integrate it themselves.

I don’t really see any “technical” impediments to integrating Iris-T on Rafale, it’s just a manner of it being paid for. Is anybody aware of information on this subject, or the willingness of the various actors (Dassault, HAL, ++) to move this forward? With both HMS (already available) and Iris-T integration, Rafale (F4+) certainly seems a strong candidate for Greece. The advantages of profuse weapons availability for both US & Russian platforms is obvious: If anybody at Dassault has a brain, I’d think they’d be interested in at least taking the easiest steps to alleviate this discrepancy.

Hello. I am new member and i am greek. All the above is reasonable. Weapons certification (term used in greek instead of “integration”) has always been a thorn in french aircrafts operating in HAF. The Iris-T has been designated to be probably the only future WVR missile in HAF (besides the existing sidewinder models). Which means, no plans for Asraam or AIM-9X.

The MICA, as you said, is more expensive. AMRAAM is another issue on the Rafale. The rest of HAF’s air-to-ground ammunition is also a question. Currently, there are much more Amraams than MICA in HAF’s inventory. Considering that the MICA is much more expensive, this is good news. Adding more french aircrafts into HAF, would mean, to have the need for more MICA ($) and at the same time, “degrade” the Amraams (even the C-5 and upcoming C-7) to the exclusive use of F-16s. Which doesn’t make much sense, does it? Why should a 4th gen aircraft not being able to take a missile under constant evolution like the Amraam? Of course, certification shouldn’t be a problem for the Rafale, provided that we pay… :rolleyes:

In my opinion, the Rafale, is out of the game, from the moment that there will be no exchange for Mirage2000. It is impossible to imagine the airforce with M2000+M2000-5+Rafale. The french should have proposed us the Rafale a few years ago, instead of the Mirage2000-5.

Back to the Rafale and its potential. There is one problem with all this. That we are required to become the guinea pig, once more. And this can’t happen this time, because from the next year, the A-7 will have to start their retirement. Leaving aside the cost, who guarantees that weapons/JHMCS certification will go smoothly and in short times? In the MirageF1, the certification of Sidewinder was tedious and at the end, only 2 Sidewinders could be used. The Mirage2000 had initially radar problems. The 2000-5Mk2 had delays because of the integration of the ICMS2000Mk2 self-protection suite. Also, oddly enough, it is not certified to use the AIM.39 antiship missile, while the M2000 is. We didn’t want to pay extra $. The Erieye had problems with links for years. The prototype of the U214 is still under dispute over its future. The Leopard 2 had further delays after the turret armor failed and more recently, there were some small cracks detected near a hatch. Given this past record of being the “guinea pig” in untested systems, i think that any offer of integration “to-be” will be not luring at all. I also think that the idea of being the only country using a certain subsystem won’t be appealing at all. It means higher aftersales costs.

All companies, are always ready to promise the moons and the stars, but we have learnt, that between promice and reality, often there is a difference to pay in… time, as well as $.

For the same reason, SAAB couldn’t partecipate with the Gripen NG in the competition, but with the existing Gripen, since the “NG” is still on paper and one of the requirements is that the candidate must be operative with at least the airforce of the country that produces it.

Whatever the final choice will be, i don’t expect it to be a choice of high risk. Or, at the least, it must make sure, that some new aircrafts will arrive soon, to replace the first A-7 as they will be retiring.

The favourites right now are F-16 and Typhoon. Both can deploy the totality of US weapons (A2A or A2G) in HAF’s inventory, have JHCMS and some advantages to each.

Some speculate that there can be a small order for a few F16s and an order for Typhoon. The F16s would allow to start replacing the first A-7 and “buy time” for the deliveries of the first Typhoons.

The budget for the new aircraft is fixed, so it simply means that for the same money one can get X F16s or Y Typhoons.
Politics will play a role, as always, but HAF’s evaluation compared to the future threat of F35, has also been prepared and will also play a role.

Last but not least, recently the F35 was presented to HAF officials as another solution from LM. But i doubt there will be an order for F35 now, because it would postpone the deliveries too much. But, there is also yet another factor to take in consideration. There is a chance, that Greece may have anticipated elections this summer. If the goverment doesn’t make up its mind about the aircraft and goes to elections, then it is almost certain that the socialist opposition will win. And this can lead to a whole new game and… delay.

The aircraft that will be chosen, must be known to work well, as of NOW. No promices, no extra $ to certify our existing weapons. They usually mean DELAY (and $).

As for an agreement for increased profit from the sales of Iris-T for Rafale users, i see some problems. The construction work of the greek company is already decided. In the IRIS-T consortium, there is also Italy, Spain, Germany, countries that promote the Typhoon. So, if any deal, they would have an interest to promote the use of IRIS-T on the buyers of the Typhoon, instead of the Rafale. Also, France will never buy IRIS-T. Why? Because France isn’t in the program. Meaning, no french company is gaining $ out of it. As for India, Brasil & Co, well, they have yet to become Rafale customers.