I’m not being funny here guys

You are always funny Steve 😀

This comes back to the point of warning time Roel I’ve been banging on about for days though mate!. ESM detection of the active seeker gives the ships crew facing the Brahmos more time to employ chaff, floating decoys, jamming techniques and initiate maneovering. A ship facing NSM has no ESM assistance and consequently less time to deploy softkill.

ANd at what range did Mr Steve think ESM detection would work? Isn’t there some kind of horizon for a Missile’s active radar too? If that missile flies about 15m above sealevel, wouldn’t that radarhorizon be something like 18-20miles? for a high mounted mastreceiver a range of let’s say 30 miles? Wouldn’t that be quite a short range considering that missile goes about 700m/s? If your missile is going something like 300m/s (Harpoon type), wouldn’t that give you almost equally much time to deploy your CM? Or am I missing something here?

As to your comments on GPS it sounds like your ships techies need to check the calibration of the radar or the GPS unit!. I’ve used commercial GPS for marine navigation and for hill walking and never found myself anywhere near that far off. The GPS system aboard a missile is hardly going to use commerial GPS resolution either!.

It was calibrated, we never quite figured out what the problem was… Afterwards it seemed to work fine… (we don’t use ship techies, we’re no Navy sissies that need ten people for every single job. It’s the officer’s task to do that, well sometimes the electrician when it’s a technical systemfailure)

Anyhow, GPS can be jammed, proven by the French. Even if it has higher resolution, don’t you think such a jamming would quite waste your waypoint thingie? Also, you still have to rely on that one very unreliable country, nl. US. Russia could do this too with their missiles probably… But if you have NSM, then you’ll have to calculate the GPS development costs in it too (if your country really wants to stand on its own legs), otherwise your missile is worth nothing. (well maybe the INS will keep your missile somewhere operating but I wouldn’t trust that too much though). That’s the same as Yakhont without Kondor I suppose. (ouch that one was below the belt wasn’t it? 😉 )

Of course because then the Russian Sea Skimmers will then be about 20 years old… Unless the Russians (and Chinese or Indians by that time) come with something new that is…
And at what price is US going to get all that? How much deeper are they going to make their moneypit? And of course What For? Who’s threatening them? They’ll loose their “superpower” status anyway, on economic grounds, and what are they going to do then? Invade China? Kinda childish don’t you think?

hm, I read the Duma denied that sale… And that US made its own copy of the Kh-31, which did not perform as well as the original one anyway.
The Kondor-E satellites have already be launched… maybe only Active in 2006 and but there are some birds up already.
It was rumored that China and Iran are together working on a new guidance system for Yakhont because they didn’t want to accept Kondor-E (or was it too pricey? Or too dependant on Russia?).

Harpoon?. When did I say I thought Harpoon was a particularly good weapons system?.

Hmm, I thought that was your damn statement you tried to defend. If Harpoon isn’t good, then you mean the RUssian stuff is rubbish, since you try to say Harpoon is better than Russian missiles…
I think Nuke was quite right when he mentioned the Argentine conflict… And beating back the British CVBG would be an unpayable victory! No money should stand in the way for accomplishing that. Of course they would still have the SSNs around, but by flying in your troops via air, you can get rid of UK…
And those heroic harriers wouldn’t keep it that long if the Argentines would have pushed a bit harder. I don’t think the British CVBG had E-2C in the air… Yet it would be worth a Granit attack.

They indeed tested NSM, but not from Skjold yet. (Since she’s in drydock for rebuilding her to the new serial production units, (yet had to be decided whether they were going to change the bow or not))

Let’s play some open cards here:

P-700 Granit (SS-N-19 Shipwreck)

The development of the P-700 missile system started in 1969, but it was prolonged due to its complexity. It was assumed that the main source of information would be the satellite-based reconnaissance network, and from the very beginning, it was believed that the missile would be able to communicate with it directly after launch. The initial targeting information was to be received by a submarine cruising at a depth of about 30 m via a long-wave communications system from ground bases. The attack was to be coordinated with a group of long-range Tu-22M anti-ship aircraft. The underwater attack group consists of three to five Oscar and Oscar II subs, each armed with 24 P-700 missiles. The subs were to launch 70-120 such missiles against a single carrier group in a single mass attack. Roughly 30-50% of them are aimed at the carrier, while the others go after accompanying ships. Another salvo of 12-24 missiles was to be launched by aircraft, mainly to saturate the carrier group’s defenses. The 30-knot speed of the Oscar I/II submarines enables a rapid approach to the launch area, about 450-500 km from the carrier group, and equally quick evasion after the attack.

The missile employs all of the techniques from the Bazalt/Vulkan. One lead missile per every 24 in the salvo flies at high altitude to reconnoiter the target, using its radar in active and passive modes. The active mode is used in quick “looks,” then turned off to increase the penetration probability. The lead missile assigns targets to all subordinate missiles and communicates with the other lead missiles in the massive salvo to coordinate the attack. To achieve this, the missile is equipped with a powerful digital computer with three processors. The missile has an onboard integrated electronic-countermeasures suit for avoiding enemy anti-missile attacks using a combination of maneuver and deception jamming. The computer could order the missile to one of various stored courses with multiple altitudes. At high altitude, the missile speed is Mach 2.5, while at low (sea-skimming) altitude, it is Mach 1.5. Vital parts of the missile are armored to increase penetration against fire from Phalanx-type close-in weapon systems and against fragments of closely exploding air-defense missiles. The missile has a conventional 750-kg HE warhead or a nuclear warhead with an unknown yield (reportedly 500 kT, but that seems too high).

The guidance system was developed by TsNII “Granit.” The missile itself was developed in OKB-52 (later NPO Mashinostoyeniya) under the direction of Chelomey and, after his death in 1984, under Gerberd Efremov. First tests of the missile started in November 1975. Numerous difficulties prolonged the factory tests until 1979, and in autumn of that year, the missile began state trials. Technical difficulties further prolonged the trials through October 1983, and the missile was officially accepted into service in March 1983. At this time, the space-based Legenda reconnaissance system had been fully deployed. In addition to the satellite system, the submarine could also use its own MGK-540 Skat-3 sonar system for targeting.

Only two Oscar I ships have been built: the K-525 (Arkhangelsk ) and K-206 (Murmansk ), commissioned in 1981 and 1983, respectively. Both remain in service with the Northern Fleet, and each are armed with 24 missiles and have Kasatka-U receivers for communication with the Legenda system. The subs were followed by the “ultimate” Oscar II class, of which 11 have been commissioned since 1986. The Northern Fleet operates the K-119 (Voronezh ), K-148 (Krasnodar ), K-410 (Smolensk ), K-266 (Orel ), K-186 (Omsk ), and K-150 (Tomsk ). The K-141 (Kursk ) exploded and sank on August 13, 2000. The Pacific Fleet operates the K-132 (Irkutsk ), K-173 (Krasnoyarsk ), K-442 (Chelabinsk ), and K-456 (Vyluchinsk ). The Russian Navy plans to commission a replacement for the Kursk, the K-329 (Belgorod ).

The P-700 missile was also introduced to service as a weapon for surface ships. Four Kirov-class nuclear cruisers were commissioned between 1980 and 1998: the Kirov (renamed Admiral Ushakov ), Frunze (renamed Admiral Lazarev ), Kalinin (renamed Admiral Nakhimov ) and Yuriy Andropov (renamed Pyotr Velikiy ). They were armed with 20 semi-vertical (with some oblique, like in submarines) P-700 Granit launchers. The system was directly adapted from submarines – to the point where the launchers have to be filled with water before launch. Fire control is provided by the MR-212 Vaygach-U onboard radar and other ships’ electronic systems (the Gurzuf or Kantata-M passive reconnaissance systems, for example). The first two cruisers were withdrawn from service in the late 1990s, but the Admiral Nakhimov and the Pyotr Velikiy continue to serve. The only other ship equipped with P-700 Granit system is the aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznietsov , commissioned in 1990 and operational with Russian Northern Fleet since 1995. The ship is armed with 12 P-700 launchers.”

It’s from an article called Managing the Chaos: Postwar evolution of Naval C3

The MRSC-1 Uspekh system was developed specifically for target acquisition and designation for anti-ship missiles. It consisted of a Tu-95RC Bear D with its radar and a data-exchange system with aircraft and ship interfaces. Echo II submarines used the Argument fire-control system for presetting a missiles INS and for data exchange with the missile in flight. The whole system was fielded the in latter half of the 1960s. Two new systems were developed in the early 1970s. First was the more capable Uspekh-U, which was based on a modernized Tu-95RC aircraft. The other became the primary targeting means of the Soviet – and presently the Russian – Navy. This was the MKRC Legenda space-based system, operational in 1979, the main element of which is radar-equipped 17F16 satellites that use onboard miniature nuclear reactors for power. Again, the system consisted of both SIGINT- and radar-equipped components, but in this case they were satellites. The Legenda system did not replace the Uspekh-U, which also remains in service, but provides greater coverage and flexibility. The deployment of both systems solved the problem of targeting for cruise-missile-armed units, both surface warships and submarines. The latter, equipped with the Kasatka (and later-model) receiving equipment, are able to receive basic targeting information from the Legenda reconnaissance system, even when submerged. This feature greatly improved submarine survivability.

In 1967, the first “Uspekh” system, developed by his team was built. Its main performers (Kudryavtsev, Alekseyev, Khaskin, Kobilyanskiy, Lapiy) got the State Prize of the USSR. The success was full !!! Then Kudryavtsev began intensive studies of the problem of “behind horizon” vision. The solution of this problem might expand the Radio-location system (RLS) visibility range. The academician Shchukin, one of the founders of radio-location, considered this idea as an absurd one. But Kudryavtsev’s system of “behind horizon” vision, built on the basis of his dissertation was under operation for over fifteen years !
At the end of 60-s, the top secret exhibition of military technique achievements was held in the town of Severomorsk. “Uspekh” system was exhibited there as well. The exhibition was visited by Nikita Khrushchyov, the leader of the state. When explaining to him the principle of the system, Kudryavtsev underlined that the higher an aircraft with on-board RLS system was flying, the more effective the system could be.
-You mean, that antenna should be put as high as possible?, – asked Khrushchyov.
-Yes !
-Then put it upon a satellite!
Kudryavtsev needed strongly this very suggestion – new prospects appeared, the required means were allotted and the work started. This time the result was evaluated with Lenin Prize.
Kudryavtsev managed to organize at his institute all necessary scientific researches for development of main technical means, including computer equipment.

Judge for yourself, using your own definition of most advanced anti-ship missile.

Also, a little question for Jonesy, Granit is a SeaSkimmer, only one missile up. Doesn’t that make it as “unseen” as your harpoon? Except for that one missile up, you’ll indeed be warned by that, but as long a you don’t see any more missiles, you can only guess from where they are coming and how many of them are there.

hmmm doesn’t a SPY-1 module and Aegis cost about $400mlln?
The interference is something the Russians seem to have dealt with, they were quite known for that. On Kashin already they use a lot of different systems.
Yes it’s probably expensive, yet still it seems to be less expensive than Aegis. Considering their much smaller cost of vessels. (add this to the fact that they build much less vessels of one class, hence this increases their cost already). BTW Aegis is old and outdated anyway.
Sean’s spreadsheat is absolutely fabulous (I helped correcting it :D)

Well, basically the Russians seem to have solved their Lack of Aegis by doing this.
If the Volna (S300F) guidance can take on 6 targets, and you have two of these, then you have 12 targets at one time for your outward layer. The second layer, consists of Kinzhal, 15km range, one radar mounted, let’s say this one can track 3 targets, that already makes your total go to 15 targets.
Then come the 6 Kashtan modules, each taking one target, that makes 21 targets at one time in different layers/ranges. I don’t think the Harpoon attack will get far :rolleyes:

They simply rely on this multiple layer system, every system its own radar.

Little correction there, Shtil-1 is more comparable to ESSM at the moment, S300F would be more of a SM-2 counterpart.

Guidance:
SA-N-6 (S300F) Top Dome (Volna)
SA-NX-20 (S300FM)Tomb Stone
SA-N-7 (Buk?) Front Dome (Orekh)
SA-N-12(Shtil-1) Front Dome (Orekh)
SA-N-9 (Kinzhal) Cross Sword

blabla,
get back to you when I have more time. If someone else hasn’t completed the list that is.

hmm that is not a 50km on 50km box for sure… That would mean the ship in the middle is more than a mile (well to give a better calculation, it would be about 5miles) large. That one doesn’t exist, sorry. Yes, sure I would, you can clearly see that on size and Length-beam ratio. That is also why I’m quite 90% sure that is an LPG carrier, it’s more sleek than a large crude tanker (and of course the Compressor room is visible). If it had a much larger beam and same length I would have known it was a tanker. A carrier quite an easy distinguishable deckshape.
I was even surprised that this is Singapore, I’ve been there at anchor and we were quite a lot closer to each other there. The anchorages there are more seperated, the oil tankers are more towards teh Strait of Malacca, the LPGs are kept in a more open water (as can be seen here). The smaller vessels might be smaller LPG carriers, not sure, but I’m hell sure they are merchants. You can see the “bridgewings” of the accomodations in the back of each ship, the radar response of these parts is much higher than the fronts of the ship, that’s probably because the roof of an accomodation is straight and the maindeck is going down towards the side (a bit stealthy in that respect). Now, it’s the first time I see such a pic and I’m sure the military analysts who did this many more times, can see a lot more points to see the difference between both types of vessels.

I’ll have to look that over again, yet this could be one of my last posts here… I don’t have time to sustain all this research nowadays.

As for the Gripen, this already requires a close Airbase, it won’t fly as far as the Sukhoi, neither will it be able to launch its missile equially far off. Not good if you ask me. Cheaper, yes, but I suppose that depends on your scenario then.
And you keep saying that NSM is invisible, do you have any proof of that? Doesn’t that mean your plane has to launch it very close to the surface? or get seen by the radar while just launched? You’re thinking too much on economics too, since Indian and Chinese don’t seem to think about that at all. It’s not because the West has such a lousy management that the entire world has that… Basically you’re connecting “best missile” to “cheapest thing around”… You can see it the other way around too. WHat does it cost you to keep off these missiles, well it takes you a $4blln carrier which undergoes a $2blln refit during its life, it takes you 4 or 6 $800mln-$1bln escorts, plus the price of all these planes, hundreds of missiles for the escorts, fuel for all of this, replenishment vessels etc. In this respect, I don’t know who is better off… Also, if one of these escorts is taken out, you’ll have a great weakeness, on the other hand if you take out 1 of these attackers, well another one will take its place, costing only 40mlln to replace, while your ship will add another 1blln to your cost.

quite easy in fact. The large guy in the middle is an LPG-tanker, can be seen by its broad beam and huge size (and compressor room in the middle). You can also easily, for warships, see it on size. This is a scale view, you can probably very well see the carrier. From this you can also determin where the Ticos and Burkes are.
I think P700 is guided by the Kasatka-B system in addition to RORSAT. Got anymore info on this one?
You think the classified military sats aren’t any better than this?