No it isn’t, considering Granit’s wings and its speed, this allows for greater manoeverability. And if not, then Harpoon doesn’t really use its manoeverability and Granit and Moskit do. Also, AFAIK, you need smaller wings at greater speeds to keep your manoeverability. (well that’s what you need for ship’s stabilizing fins…)

hmm, not fair of pushing me out here…
Guys, if this is AGAIN the way this discussion is going, we should just close this place down… No personal attacks on Jonesy or anyone else should be made here. You just have to give him hard facts to convince him, if you don’t have these, or don’t have a logical assumption, he might as well be right! That’s the basics of debate and conversation.

Fair one, but, you are confirming my point. The original assertion here was that the Russians were ahead of the game on antiship missiles. I listed some of the operational drawbacks of some of the weapons that, IMO, disprove that view. Now you seem to be suggesting that missiles would have to be fired in such volumes as to occupy the target fleets full complement of director fire-channels.

Tell me why the same feat couldnt be performed, oh so much cheaper and easier, by 50 Flankers carrying 4 Uran’s apiece instead of 100 thumping great Backfires firing 100 Kh-22’s and 5 thumping great SSGNs firing 100 Shipwrecks?. That is, in fact, if it is at all feasible to target that many weapons on a task force simultaneously (which I strongly doubt).

I think Gary was right about this. It’s not because an F-22 can fight the MiG-21 that it is as rubbish as MiG-21. Same with those SSMs. It’s not because the Harpoon is a good weapon that there is no better one around. I think you are just looking at this a bit too much the US vs. Russian way again (now that’s my only personal remark). As I said before, how many countries have such a comprehensive AAW screen? In Asia, that is none, so there these supersonic missiles are more of a pain in the ass than Uran or Harpoon. They simply don’t have the systems that need hundreds of cheap slow missiles to saturate their defenses. 1 or 2 fast supersonic missiles might already suffice.
Also, your extremely slow Harpoons (or Uran if you want) will give much more time to the defenses to redirect the illuminators. The Supersonic Mach3 weapons give you a few seconds while the Uran/Harpoon will give you many more seconds to use your illuminators, hence if you fire hundred very slow ones, they might take out 50, if you fire 100 superfast ones, they might take out only 10 (purely theoretical, no calculations, but it’s logical I suppose).

For that Klub, they are marketing the missile, so I suppose it’s ok now. As for any proof of active service, there is none. I think the Russian Kilos (I think 4 or 5 of them are upgraded with it) use the same system as the Indian Kilos. No other systems are around at the moment.

I find it astounding how the ‘internet-forum world’ has latched on to missile debris-strikes so vehemently as a guaranteed ship mission-killer. There is every bit as much ‘chance’ of the heavier, pain inducing, bits of debris punching through the funnel group or somewhere else non-critical as trimming off a vital sensor or weapons system.

Do you know what a Burke is worth without its forward funnel? Indeed, NOTHING. All communications between the Bridge and CIC run through it (quite a flaw in the design, having a CIC in the lower part of the ship instead of just behind your bridge). WHen a fire occurs in there… The ship’s finished. If it hits one of the radars or illuminators… It will be disabled for some part. As Gary said, when 4 tons of debris is coming your way, it might have a chance of hitting whatever part of a ship.

As I’ve already said – how long does this evolution take? If its near terminal phase update is their a risk that the missiles pass the terminal phase threshold without update? Also, just like Yakhont, the high missile gives away the suprise that there is a strike inbound. Anything that tips off a group of warships that missiles are inbound more than a couple of minutes out is a bad thing as it lets them start decoying. Look at Sheffield she was caught because she wasnt alert, irrespective of her defensive systems, the best way to catch a ship is not to let her know that she’s under attack at all.

The Yakhont doesn’t use this kind of system I think. Yakhont is guided by the Kondor-E satellite, Now, there are almost no countries that can counter a satellite at the moment. So again, no real offboard targetting unit is required (or at least not a vulnerable one). I think in terminal phase, all Granit missiles go up and light up their own radars. I’ll take a look for that.

Eventually thought, wouldn’t it be better to have a few coming from both sides? Seperating the directors to both sides of the ship, not allowing them to change direction, hence limiting the number of directors on one side to 2 or even only 1? Then it would be even better for using supersonic missiles, since four Harpoons on one side would still be vulnerable, while Four supersonic missiles would be almost sure of a hit…
Just another idea. But again, may I point out that there are more Navies than USN alone and that no matter what Harpoon can do, a missile that is faster more manoeverable and longer-ranged is imho a better weapon.

Shadow1, no problem at all, no offense taken.
E is for Export I suppose, Russian Navy only has the Klub on its own Kilo submarines. Otherwise they don’t use it.
[quote]Acceptance trials conducted by the Indian Navy for its modernised Sindhugosh Class submarines, resulted in six successful 3M-54E test launches which demonstrated both minimum (20km) and maximum (220km) range capability against surface targets[/img]
It is in service… Or do you mean in Russian service? Russians don’t really use it as I said before. They seem to rely on their submarines and Granit only… With only four Sovremennies active, the Moskit platforms have decreased a lot. Only the Tarantul III carries it. I suppose they have chosen for the slower sea-skimmers. Uran is mounted on Smetliviy, Tartarstan, and upgraded Krivak I class, it’s also proposed for Neustrashimy (and soon her sistervessel probably).

Partially you are right, indeed with a Tupolev-only strike it wouldn’t succeed, but that wasn’t the idea either. As I have admitted before, you need all the assets. These Tupolevs would be augmented by, normally, 5 Oscars, that would still give you something to think about. Since your AD systems will be firing at all these “easy” targets, yet a 100 Granits will be flying on a lower path.
Now, what I just got to think of, wouldn’t it be better then to give your attack from just that one angle? Filling 100+ missiles in one small SPY-1 panel? giving just that part of the system too much work? Also, SPY doesn’t really target, these ships only have three (Burke) and four (Tico) illuminators which you need for about 10 seconds on each target. If you need 10 seconds for four targets, you’ll need a lot more seconds for 10 times that much missiles and those seconds are quite vital if the attack consists of these rapid birds…

There is no Umkhonto VLS, it was just a proposal, the Finnish Navy has some financial problems and already has cancelled several projects.
The only Air Defense this ship has is a sextuple Matra Sadral Launcher for the Mistral missile. This launcher can be replaced by two Sako 23mm twin guns. There are also 2 12.7mm guns.
It has 4 Saab Elma LLS-920 9-barreled ASW mortars and 1 rail for Depth Charges, which I suppose can be used for Mines. None of their craft can officially carry mines, or at least very few of them. The Fact is that most of them can, and indeed as you assumed by exchanging the SSMs for it. It has no torpedo tubes.
I think, for the Sadral launcher,that it is mounted in the Recessed part just behind the main mast. The ASW mortars, I assume, are in the same part just behind the mast or maybe mounted inside the hull. Maybe someone else can deliver some specific pictures?

What it serves for? Like all Baltic Navies, Air Defense is mostly provided by land-based aircraft, the small size of the Baltic allows that.
Sweden also doesn’t have AD, although Visby could receive some (also Umkhonto was proposed), yet that is probably for some more NATO related exercises.
Baltic fleet of Russia, only Bespokoiny and Nastochiviy have a medium range SAM, the others are mostly FACs.
Germany, didn’t have long/Medium range SAMs before the advent of Sachsen. Same there, not needed, yet better for international duties (and of course other reasons).

Hamina is a nice ship, but these paints are very expensive to keep ok. Other ships can stay in service with some bad paintjob too, but to have all these different colours and keep them ok, it takes a lot of paint and work and become very expensive (not an assumption,from Finnish Navy personnel).
They also have the capability of laying mines in the entire Finnish waters within 24 hours, with clearly drawn minefields. A Very good defensive Navy, all Baltic Navies have this capability, Swedes can lay mines too, very nasty, but very effective.

Sum of All fears was BAD in this respect. I liked the movie, but this was one of the worst parts of the movie, showing nice stuff, but missing some part.

The defense of the carrier was completely absent, no Tico or Burke in the area, only the Phalanx was used as defense. Also, the Phalanx just shot two or three missiles, which is practically impossible, 1 is the limit.

Indeed Nakhimov is under repair now, Lazarev isn’t certain at all and Ushakov is being scrapped now. They indeed tried to raise funds for her repair and asked the population for some money, yet they didn’t get half what they needed, so they abandoned the repair. Now she’s being scrapped as result. A Good thing if you ask me. It’s too outdated without the Kashtans and old S300F. They’d better upgrade Nakhimov for the S300FM and also finish Velikiy.

As for SeaHawk/Jonesy/Nitin, Indeed, same here, you need all components to get it right. Otherwise you’ll have to build a copy of a US fleet and hope your CVBG is better…

Are you calling me uninitiated?
These ships have indeed passed their good time, yet are Tico, Burke etc. Any better? If the Russians wanted to give these assets a good purpose, they could engage anyone for any reason, like US does, yet they do not do that… That indeed renders these ships somewhat useless. Although, in late Soviet Doctrine, which I think they might still be able to follow, they could still protect the SSBN bastions in the North very well. This would still be good enough to keep away any other Navy that would try to attack them, including USN. Indeed, they consume lots of money, but so do US cruisers and destroyers, they could build 300 frigates instead if they wanted.(this would by the way give them a much better protection against smugglers and terrorists than the current fleet).

Like we discussed on the Brahmos thread. Range for a Yakhont type weapon on lo-lo profile is also about 130km. There is a range advantage only if you choose a high midcourse approach for the supersonic weapon. That high midcourse giving the defender a much easier time detecting the inbound.

Yes, it would, but what are you going to do about it? Apart from USN and a handful of European countries, nobody has the weapons to start defending at such ranges. So, eventually you hardly have any advantage by detecting it earlier. When it starts its attack in low profile you would see quite late, yet you would directly be capable of engaging it, on the other hand, if it goes high, you detect it early, but you have to wait untill it’s close enough to engage it. Also, when it comes diving from that high, it’ll have an additional speed.

If speed and range where enough to reliably get the job done Roel do you think that P-700 would carry ECM and armour?. If Granit needs such penetration aids what makes you think that Yakhont wouldnt?.

This is exactly what I meant with “extra”. Granit had extra space available in its airframe, yet doesn’t necessarily need these measures to get through. The titanium etc, are just to make your hit-chance higher, the Styx that got hit by an OSA-MA missile didn’t have that titanium protection… But USSR didn’t know what a SeaSparrow would do against this, so, they took the sure thing before the unsure thing! ECM is supposed to be on the missile, but we’re not sure of it unless you can give me a good link?
So, these missiles are at the edge, they don’t have any spare space, it’s full of warhead and fuel tank, no space for ECM gear and armour.

Simply put in today’s threat environment many navies have to justify their funding by what their units can bring to the all arms battle ashore. The blue-water fleet on fleet engagement doesnt exist anywhere anymore. With the demise of that goes all the value of P-700 and all the other weapons of that kind as an unuseable weapon is a useless weapon. Without a US CVN to try and sink whats the point of a bloody great missile, however advanced, who’s only value is sinking US CVN’s?.

Maybe you can describe today’s Threat environment here? To most of the world, the threat STILL IS A US CVBG… They are the most agressive Navy around. And if you’re talking about terrorists, well throw away all your missiles, no AD systems needed, not even a Harpoon needed, a Phalanx will do the job then.
If that battle ashore is on your terrain, you won’t try to shoot missiles at your own land, you’ll try to avoid the other guy from putting men ashore and these men just come from a US Amphibious group in 90% of the cases. Now these are mostly protected by a CVBG…
Of course, if you’re not a large power, you indeed don’t need Granit etc. Well in fact no one needs it, cause US only dares to take on small countries of which they are sure they can’t do anything.

The NSM is indeed a good missile. Uran can be helo-launched, plane-launched etc. too.
Those strike fighters might be available, China and Russia have them.
As for multiple missiles, it’s of course better if you have multiple supersonic missiles on your airframe, like KH-31P or KH-31A that would do the job, yet that brings you back into the range of these AD systems… ANd of course, the Tu-22M3 bomber carried 3 Kh-22M… But is of course a huge and probably quite expensive plane.

BTW: US has a program for a Supersonic anti-ship missile at the moment. It’s not “which Navy can threaten us enough to need such weapon?” but it’s “Which Navy WILL BE ABLE to threaten us enough to need such weapon?” and the answer is of course PLAN.