Woaaw, sorry for you Hyperwarp!!! I didn’t know you lived there… Glad to see you’re still alive then! We’re all in for some help, although I think it’ll take some time before it reaches your side!
Condolescences to all who lost family and friends there!

Well, FAS is probably the wrong one… Happens more than once! I’ll check some other sources though.

It is indeed that guy:

Admiral (retd) J G Nadkarni
The Indian Navy’s white elephant
You have recently completed your bungalow and are on the lookout to hire some people for security. Pandu chowkidar has agreed to do the job along with his friend for about Rs 2,000 a month per person. But your good friend who has a security business steps in. Don’t waste your money, he says. I have a surplus of these people. I can give you a couple free. But what about some electronic fencing and surveillance cameras? Before you know it he has sold you equipment worth a couple of lakhs.

India’s imminent purchase of the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov comes pretty close to this illogical purchase.

A little background first. The Gorshkov is one of four carriers built by the erstwhile Soviet Union during the Seventies at the height of the Cold War. The first three, the Kiev, the Minsk and the Novorossyisk, saw operational service in the Soviet Navy during the late Seventies and the Eighties.

When the Cold War ended the Russians no longer could sustain a fleet with so many carriers and they were all sold for scrap in the early Nineties.

The Gorshkov, earlier called the Baku, was the last to be completed and did not become operational until 1986. Her operational career was cut short, however, when a devastating fire crippled the ship. Although she was repaired, the Gorshkov never saw operational service thereafter.

In the late Eighties, the Indian Navy began to look for options to replace the ageing Vikrant and Viraat. The original idea was to build one in India. Various actions were taken towards that goal.

Apparently wanting to get into the act, the Russians offered the Gorshkov to the navy in 1994. The purchase had many difficulties. The ship was far bigger that what the navy was looking for. At 45,000 tons and with a deep draught, the ship was not capable of entering Mumbai harbour, which was the logical place for basing it if the navy wanted it primarily as an air defence ship for the Western Fleet.

The navy also did not have adequate facilities to carry out major repairs. But though the price was more than ten times what the navy had paid for the Viraat, it was still worth consideration at Rs 1,000 crore. Many in the navy were for the deal.

But when the navy dilly-dallied, the Russians hit upon a new gambit. We will give you the carrier free, they said. Just take it away and do what you want with it.

Naval eyes lit up at the word ‘free’. When the navy and defence ministry were truly and properly hooked, the Russians slowly let in the rider. You will, of course, need to modify and refit the ship for use in India. We will do it for you. It will only take a couple of years and cost you Rs 3,000 crore.

And of course you will require a squadron or two of our latest carrier-based fighter, the MiG 29K. Cost? Another 6,000 crore. Thus the total cost of this rather doubtful acquisition is anywhere between Rs 6,000 crore and Rs 10,000 crore.

In his first term as India’s defence minister, George Fernandes promised to bring in greater transparency in India’s arms deals. Yet these remain as opaque and unfathomable today as they ever were. No one can make head or tail out of the Gorshkov purchase. Why is a poor nation so intent on seeing through this exorbitant deal? And where is the Indian Navy, with an annual budget of only 3,000 crore, finding the money to pay for all this? Can the job not be done much more cheaply?

Not getting the right answers to these questions, the general belief is that there is something fishy about the whole deal. Recent deals with Russia, including the Rs 6,000 crore Su-30MK deal and Rs 4,500 crore frigate deal, have all been subjects of controversy. None of these deals has been adequately explained by the government.

There is no doubt that the Indian Navy requires a carrier. It needs it to defend its fleet on the high seas against air strikes. Anti-submarine helicopter patrols and strikes against surface targets are added bonuses, not necessities.

Are there reasonable alternatives? Of course there are. The requirements of the navy can be met by a small, 20,000 ton air defence ship. Indeed, the government has placed an order for just such a ship with the Cochin Shipyard. A Spanish yard will build such a ship for about Rs 3,000 crore. The Koreans will build a utility carrier by modifying a merchant ship with a flattop for Rs 500 crore and deliver it in 18 months. Getting the Gorshkov to do the job is like using Schumacher’s F1 Ferrari to do your weekly shopping.

The purchase of the Gorshkov at this price will also bring many other headaches to the navy. Apart from the basing and refitting problems, there will be operational problems. No naval chief will ever be willing to risk such a high-value ship in the Arabian Sea in any conflict with Pakistan. Karwar will not be ready for another 10 years and basing the Gorshkov on the east coast will create other difficulties.

In today’s charged atmosphere, a conflict can erupt at short notice and be over before the mighty Gorshkov arrives to deliver her punch. The purchase will also require the navy to mortgage its capital expenditure for the next several years. Indeed, it will be a millstone around the necks of the next two chiefs.

Viewed from all sides, if the prime minister inks the Gorshkov deal during his visit to Moscow, it will be the most illogical purchase ever between India and Russia.

With the Indian economy in the doldrums, or at least not as bright as it once was, the last thing we want is a profligate armed force. The Indian Navy cannot expect the nation to give it everything it wants at the cost of the nation’s economy. Alternatively, the navy has to live within its budget. Cheaper alternatives to the Gorshkov must be considered.

Traditionally, naval ships have been painted a shade of dark gray. If the Gorshkov is purchased, the Indian Navy might make an exception and paint the ship white. For the aircraft carrier is bound to be the biggest white elephant in the navy’s fleet.

But I afterwards found a much more interesting report:

[quote]
Navy chief defends Gorshkov deal

Josy Joseph in New Delhi |

A training vessel of the Indian Navy would circumnavigate the globe in 2003-2004 in a 15-month voyage that is likely to see the participation of foreign naval cadets also, Navy chief Admiral Madhavendra Singh said on Monday.

Addressing a press conference in New Delhi to mark the Navy Week, Admiral Singh dismissed reports about Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov being junk.

He also outlined an ambitious plan to expand maritime capabilities with a long-term perspective, but refused to discuss Indian Navy’s nuclear capabilities and projections.

“We need it. There is absolutely no doubt in our minds that we need it,” Admiral Singh said, pointing out that his predecessors and successors support his claim on Admiral Gorshkov.

Several experts believe that the entire deal on Admiral Gorshkov would be a mistake because the ship is old and rusting.

Admiral Singh said the negotiations are on and “both sides need to be happy” before the deal is finalised. According to original plans, the Admiral Gorshkov deal was to be signed during the state visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin beginning on Tuesday. But the two sides couldn’t agree on the cost of refit and other equipment.

The navy chief said at the Kochi Shipyard, the construction of the Air Defence Ship, the indigenous aircraft carrier, would begin by 2003. The government has approved the construction of the ship with a displacement of about 37,000 tonnes, he said.

He announced that INS Tarangini, a 500-tonne three-masted sail training vessel, is planning to undertake an ambitious circumnavigation of the globe in 2003-2004. The vessel, carrying cadets and probably some foreign cadets too, would visit 34 ports as it circles the globe, beginning its journey westwards and returning to India from east.

He said the induction of the three Talwar-class ships from Russia has been delayed because the navy was not satisfied with the working of “one system”. He said all the three ships are expected to be inducted before next yearend.

The navy is inducting a Prabal class corvette on December 18, the navy chief said. And early next year, the Navy would be inducting Russian made Kamov-31 helicopters for airborne early warning, and unmanned aerial vehicles from Israel.

The navy has submitted a Vision 2025 report to the Ministry of Defence projecting its long-term requirements, Admiral Singh said. “Part of this plan has been culled out and forwarded to the Ministry of Defence for a 15-year ship building plan,” the navy chief said.

Under a Naval Aviation Master Plan, he said, the navy is planning to induct advanced carrier borne fighters, multi-role helicopters and maritime reconnaissance aircraft in the next 15 years.

[/quote ]
This is much more important, look at the marked words. THEY NEED IT. Your Experts are also there, but not in the way you want them to be…

I don’t think you see the point here. It’s not like you think that the Navy is one with the Govt. In every country, the Navy has to protect itself, defend its funds and requirements. The Navy knows it needs that carrier and they’ll have to justify that. Do you think the Govt would give them the money for the purchase if they told the Govt they needed it but that it was complete junk? I don’t think so. The Govt wants to spend the least money possible, with the highest effect. (Which is quite logical btw).
The Navy really has to fight for its funding, just like the Army and Air Force, that is why in most armed forces these branches have trouble with each other. That is also the reason why the Soviet Navy uses land-based systems on their ships instead of New Navy systems. They let the major funding for the development on the Land Forces and then just minimize their cost by developing a new Radar for it and making it ready for sea service.

Can you elaborate a bit more on what photo you mean? Which post was that?

Hmm, Sameer, you should face it, both Jonesy and I, both having served on ships, have the same view on this. IN has experts, but this task is also what I’m trained for. IN’s experts may have seen something completely different from what your Navy Chief and certainly your Govt wants to see. And as I, and afterwards Jonesy, have said, a 70-80% rebuild is not only the flight deck that is being changed, that means it’s almost the entire ship. You don’t do that with a ship that is “ready to serve for another 20years”.
The Russians are in quite a strong negotiating position in this matter. They have kept the carrier better maintained than the other ships in reserve because India wanted to buy it. This maintainance for 10 years, has cost them some money by now. I’m quite sure that when India would have lost interest, Russia would have sold it to China (for a Casino, requiring less maintenance and no new engines etc.) or as the new rebuilt carrier…).
So, we aren’t Naive as you have stated several times now, we just speak from experience and what we see and receive from the media. You can give us reports of the “good state” of Gorshkov, but I have seen others too, from a former Chief of the IN too, in which he said it was junk…

He means that you can’t do more with it than possible, you can’t turn her into a Nimitz class carrier…

As for Gorshy’s hull, I wouldn’t be so sure about her “good” state. It’s quite obvious on the last picture, that she was just newly painted. It’s a Russian trick (well not theirs, but they apply it) to paint ships when they get rusty, without bothering to take off the rust (which makes your hull plates thinner). This has as a result that the ship keeps corroding at a faster level under that paint. Also, by this painting, they use a spray paint, not minding about painting the hatchcoamings… Hatchcoamings are the rubber layers around a watertight door to keep it watertight, even if the ship deforms. Now, if you paint that rubber, it starves. It corrodes, allows the part of hull around it to corrode and create tears and cracks in the ship…
The Russians don’t seem to care, and certainly not with a ship that’s alongside. Gorshkov probably has received a “better” treatment, for the sale of it to India, but even then. If they are about to rebuild her for 80%, I think that gives a little indication…
It also had a fire (I think back in 2000), fires are not “just dangerous”, they stay dangerous. A steel structure changes under the high heat from a fire, it becomes ductile, like glass. So, if you have a fire, you don’t just change the broken down engines, but also change the floor, ceiling, walls etc. I don’t think they did that back then…
Of course that 80% rebuild will help that, and I’m quite sure they can do it for that money and probably in time too! Of course one has to ask himself whether it is usefull to rebuild a ship for 70-80% when it could be equally expensive to build a ship of itself, with all the attached advantages…

No, it’s just an addition to what I said in the beginning… I’m never complete in posts, so I need multiple ones (well normally I edit, but if I see someone already answered, then I post again)… I probably forgot another 1,000 things I could mention, but I’ll leave it to Jonesy to correct/add me, or Hyperwarp to ask something more…

Well, for the sonar, the same basic rules apply… The longer the wavelength the more “protrusion” you will have, the further your wave can go. The disadvantage of this long wavelength is that you can’t aim very well.
Now, for sonar’s ranges, there is something called CZ (Convergence Zone) it’s a way of sending your waves to the surface. By encountering the air above it (this is the first CZ) they bounce back down, but by temperature and pressure they go back up at a certain level. There they hit the surface again (that’s called the second CZ) dependant on how strong your sonar is, you will get more and more Convergence Zones. Normally something like 20 or 30 nm is between the zones.