ChromWhen the overall total was around 11000 service men. Of cause that were not all army people, but that war was/is fought by a force of different armed Russian forces.
For the service men it does not matter, what uniform was carried, because they were part of the armed Russian forces, who fought the same enemy.
Its 3500 combined – army, MVD, special forces, etc. 11000 MAY be so-called combat losses which include wounded peoples.
ChromYou are right about that. That link was given to show the related losses in a similar kind of warfare, like your Chechen example. You used it without numbers and source about that before. In my opinion the links do not bolster your claim about that. Clear enough now!
I GAVE LOSSES – 3500 Army soldiers and 30 helicopters for 3 years. AGAIN, what YOUR numbers?
P.S. My sources: http://www.google.de/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=2nd+chechen+war&spell=1
ChromThe 30mm grenade launchers are good to 1.7km and have fibre optic sighting. The Kornet are good to 5.5km.
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This is BIG exxageration given what AGS dont have ballistic computers and proper stabilization. Its the same thing as to say what regular rifle is good up to 2 km. Well, technically rifle bullet can kill someone at that distance. But the chance to actually HIT the point you aimed for is very, very slim. Kornet’s are good but obviously tank main gun or artillery are better (and much cheaper) in the support role.
ChromFace the reality, when you start a war you are responsible for your losses too !
Hezbollah fighters crossed the Blue-line (international border set by the UN and observed) by force into Israel. It was not the first incident and the Lebanon was ordered to disarm Hezbollah before. Hezbollah and Lebanon ignored that and renewed hostilities. Idiots have to suffer always!
I am not pleased to see my taxpayers money given to Lebanon to help such careless fools.
Omg, Israel crossed THAT border literally every month before. Moreover, we still dont forget IDF forces in Lebanon during 90x. I cant say what Hezballah is good company, but if we even START comparing IDF with Hezballah actions – something is very, very wrong here with Israel. Comparing terrorist islamic organisation methods with supposely democratic country actions on equal terms… The worst thing here what all these deaths and chaos in Lebanon didnt bring anything good for Israel. They could justify civilian losses in Lebanon IF they brought Hezballah down. But they killed a load of civillians and barery scratched Hezballah fighters. With wide prolifiration of GPS i really feel sorry for Israel citizens. Imagine what happens when Hizballah starts to lauch GPS-guided missiles aimed to vulnerable spots instead of self-made crap Katysha rockets what mostly dont even fall within town borders…
Btw, as much as i know there is still no official version about what brought down this helo.
ChromThe main strengst of BMP-T is not against ATGM’s teams in the open field, but rather against RPG teams and ATGM teams in close quarter. Its also designed to work in urban areas, forest, hills and other space restricted areas. The main weapon of BMP-T is 30mm cannon (good to 1500-2000m), and obviosly its not better than 125mm tank gun or 30mm from BMP-2. The only major advantage of BMPT compared to tank is its cannon high angles and several grenade lauchers mounted. They are good to only 500-800m but work wondefully in close distances. Thats why i doubt what IDF would get much help from BMPT. Majority of losses was inflicted to tanks from large distances where tank main gun work at least as good or better than anything BMPT have.
ChromAnd i don’t know what is the problem with all Russian and Iranian made weapons?Russia will never admit that they supplied the weapons,but even if they actualy are,then good for them.The weapons proved themselfs and guarantee future sales.The war only worked as good advertisment.
Jack thank you for the explanation,i though you have some kind of “hate” against Russians.
Allthought there is indeed no problem in russian supplies to Iran/Syria, there is a problem in Iran/Syria supplies of russian weapons to Hezballah. As much as i know, the contract between russians and Iran is clear: no russian weapons should be sold outside.
But, for me (and for Indian community), thats also not very relevant. What IS relevant: Did Hizballah inflicted all these heavy losses to IDF with old good AT-4 , AT-5, TOW, Milan – or they used advanced versions like Malytka-2, Metis-M, Kornet, RPG-29, RPG-7VR (doesnt matter where they got them)? So far we didnt recived ANY proof what there was ANY advanced ATGM types. Israels medias so far showed only old soviet, USA, Israel, european, chinese, iranian, warpac crap on they fotos – but crying about super-modern _russian_ weapons. What we can SAFELY say just now: even IF there was modern ATGM’s in Hizballah hands, they was in very, very, very few numbers. Else its impossible to explain whay IDF captured a load of old ATGM’s and none (or very few) new ATGM’s types.
ChromSens, if you like to say something, write it here. I cant read thougts, and i’m sure most other readers cant do it too. So, please, write you notions clear. Just giving 1 word or 1001 non-related links without a word is not enouth.
ChromSecondly, the loss of tanks is acceptable to Israel as versus the loss of troops which is not. When we come to this realization, given Israels population constraints, er.[/QUOTE]
This is true for any modern army, even for russian army. As you might know, there was no infantry units in soviet army, and there are no such units in russian army. An “infantry” division in russian army have about as much tanks as “tank” division, and about as much infantry. The difference is very small. Every squad have either BTR or BMP – contrary to even USA army russian soldiers dont use jeeps or trucks for patrol. Either way, russian losses in 2th CW are pretty high in numbers – army lost about 3500 soldiers. This is attributed to the fact what chechens are citizens of Russian Federation and as such can move freely within its borders, and there are no easy way to differenciate between “good” and “bad” citizen. Its impossbile to count losses as USA do – all iraq’s army & police losses are not counted. Contrary, all chechenian police(its part of russian police) loses and all chechenians killed in the RA service are counted as russian army losses.
ChromAnd how many troops, aviation assets did the Russians lose in comparison?
The IDF is a heavily mechanised force, and improper deployment of Merkavas conceded, they did use the Merkavas to reduce infantry deployment and took more armour losses that way…
We cant really speak about 1st Chechen war as losses there have nothing to do with anything except russian generals/politicans corruption/stupidity/betrayal.
So , i’ll speak about 2nd Chechen war: During 3 years of 2nd CW Russians lost 7 aircrafts and about 30 helos, and less than 10 tanks. I should stress it – during 3 years. To make an comparasion, USA lost much, much, much more in Iraq. Israel, on the other hand, couldnt lose nor aircraft, nor helos as there was just no oppurtunity to it. Israel used fighter-bombers to deliver most of its bombload which are invulnerable to MANPADS. Helos was only used near border (we can even say from the border lol). Obviosly, the main problem with using FB instead of helos and CAS aircrafts is what pilot cant identify its target from close range as first, and what it needs more time to react as second. Either way, the losses of Israel in tanks can be only compared to 1st Chechen war, and for very same reason – politcans/generals stupidity.
There is no problem to lose tank here and there – after all tanks are indeed build to burn instead of infantry. But such scale of losses with such insignificant results can be only described as “idiotism”.
ChromStill even assuming the best case scenerio that Grom could carry 10 MIRV ( which i dont believe would have been the case ) , The sub carrying just 12 SLBM is still a far cry from what the Typhoon or Delta 4 could carry.
You must understand what due to START threaties current SSBN’s missilies shouldnt carry more than 3 MIRV. Pretty simply: its much better to have 20 SSBN’s with 16 missiles / 3 MIRV each than only 5 SSBN’s with 20 missilies / 10 MIRV each.
ChromYou are kidding right Vympel?
Not all those tanks were total losses too..
I’d say the Merks have held up pretty well…they have been hammered with RPGs to Metis-Ms and only 30 odd knocked out of action!
ONLY 30? Hell, in 5 years of second Chechens war russians lost less than that. USA was fighting full-scale Iraq army and lost about as much or less… And its not if Hizballah have Metis-M or RPG-29 in every regiment. So far general consensus is what Hizballah have very few modern ATGM’s – if any. Either way, this war showed the same thing what anyone with halfbrain already knew – no tank can sustain ATGM’s hits to side/back. Even if this tank is by god protected Merkava-4.
ChromFagot and Konkurs are of the same generation. Nonetheless, I agree with you that older ATGMs still have a lot to show for them.
Technically, yes. Still, Konkurs enjoys much higher penetration and much higher range. Also, there are reports what Iran-produces Konkurs is slightly improved other basic soviet version, and have 650+ mm penetration. Either way, we still can speak about generation ahead in penetration.
ChromSo if Hezbollah are using villages for shelters then simply level the villages. Simple as that. Instead we have a situation where the IDF is obviously practising levels of restraints just like the US is in Iraq.
I rephrase you: So if IDF are using villages/cities for shelters then simply level the villages/cities. Note, what 50% israel’s “civilians” are not civilians but army conscripts. So, if its allowable to level a whole libanese town with civilians just to kill 20-30 hizballah’s then same behavior should be also justified for hezaballah killing israel’s civilians. Also, note, hizballah dont have PGM’s so they use what they got.
The West should stop trying to pretend that war is a civilised and humane thing. Instead get on with the job of fighting if fighting is what is deemed to be required.
for taking the topic off-topic.
Yes, thats a very true. BUT, such excuse about “humane and bloodless war” is the ONLY reason for any war what West started in last 50 years. I mean, speech like “kill ’em all so they can be free” dont sound very convincing to people supposely opressed by evil dictatorship, no? And once you admit what its the normal war where civilian targets (bridges, plants, houses, etc) are delibirately targetted, when you lose all your goodness “aura” and cant name your enemies as “evil fanatics hate democracy”. Suddently, they become just patriots what defend they country as they can.
Note, i dont say what West shouldnt carry any war. No. I just trying to tell what any selfrespecting man should understand when particulary war is started for economical interest, when for ideological motives, when for internal politics motives, and when for national security reasons. Also you should always understand good which enemy you fighting – a true religios fanatics, patriots or evil dictator. The problem here what patiot might appear to be very like religios fanatic if he is deep religios. Thats said, i feel what noone should start any war unless there is a DIRECT MILITARY INVASION. Rare terrorists attacks shouldnt be an excuse to start a war against independent country. And, once war is started, is MUST be carried to the end – i.e. land operation, install new goverment, old goverment courted.
ChromIt’s a load of bullsh!t but then considering the source I wouldn’t expect anything less. No rival in west? I guess they’ve never heard of the F-15E, I, K, etc. And not just 5th generation but FIRST 5th generation :rolleyes: Missile proof? LOL!
Heh, discuss russian REN-TV advertising is just as wise as discuss american Fox-TV PR. Simply put, there is no point to it.
ChromAccording to my information the Soviets didn’t have any rocket propelled anti tank weapons at all during WWII and the first to enter service was the RPG-2, which did not enter the war till well after WWII.
The RPG-2 had a rocket motor of very short operation that blew the rocket out of the tube. It had no sustainer rocket to flatten the trajectory like the RPG-7 did so it was more limited in range and the weight of warhead it could carry and its trajectory was ballistic.
RA had some captured (and produced on captured factories) Panzerfaust’s but they was never counted as “soviet” weapons. Just as war throphies in service.
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