TooCool_12fin short: the new government wants new a shiny stuff, so speaking about needed quantities doesn’t interest them and they want to stick to a 185 fighters strong air force for the next “military planification law” (for the period 2019-2025) despite the increased use of fighters through operations outside french frontiers (middle east and african wars). On the other hand, they may increase orders for air refueling A330 MRTT aircraft from 12 to 15.
The french air force should also soon receive next ordered Rafales (deliveries were suspended until Dassault could sufficiently increase the production rate to satisfy export orders first.
Can’t help but wonder if that has to do with political will to please airbus (and germans) and don’t care about dassault (serge dassault not being part of governing political party).. The today’s government has shown so little competence and such a propension to serve personal friends’ interests that such way to make decisions would be far from surprising
TooCool_12freality is that Dassault did not bid as it was a government to government RFP. Then, the french have considered (juste as Boeing and Saab, that belgium procedure was a mascarade destined to make a F-35 buy look legal (basically, describe the F-35 in the requirements and ask competitors to be as close as possible to it). So the french government made a partnership offer to Belgium outside that RFP.
Now about the “blackmail”.. the fact is that NVA (flamish nationalistic party – basically completely phobic about anything more or less related to french) guys are completely panicked at the idea that the french offer may be considered interesting and they try to do anything they can to disqualify the french offer..
here you can read a slightly different view of the story:
for example, the economic compensation proposed is 4 billion euros, not 20. 20 billion is projected cumulated benefits for Belgium after 20 years following that 4 billion investment. France also proposed tah their investment goes 55% to flamish part (paaaaaanic!!! at NVA, if ever their electors find the french “nice”) and 45% the french speaking part of Belgium.
But, while the nationalists make lots of noise, the belgian government has sent a team to work out a full proposal with the french and see if it can legally be considered, so, you can be sure that you’ll keep seeing press publications increase, trying to derail and discredit the french offer
TooCool_12ffunny that the guy wanting clearly to buy american regardless of anything else on the market comes to speak about lobbying… 😀
TooCool_12fer, Rafale there is 36 signed orders and option for 36 more, in fact. If they sign for the second batch, that would be 72 rafales
TooCool_12fstrange as a concept that official bodies from different countries who criticise the F-35 are all in error and repeating a single faulty report…
TooCool_12fthere were 34000 Bf-109s built and less than 5000 Yak-3 fighters.. which one is better in your opinion? 😉
TooCool_12fwell, if you stay beyond the first half of the video, you can see some quite good close up pics. and I still wonder what it can be. Some captions from it:
First one clear is like this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]257914[/ATTACH]
then you get this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]257915[/ATTACH]
and in the end this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]257916[/ATTACH]
any ideas?
TooCool_12fnto from the USAF but a video on youtube from something like a month ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVnbhtRKz-o
if someone has an idea what that is…
TooCool_12fI cannot see Rafale as a serious contender as a Tornado replacement.
as said previously, Germany will not even consider it for political reasons above anything else, and that is illustrated by the fact that, besides the F-35 (which is understandable as a candidate for a strike replacement) they asked for information about the F-15 and F-18, but not Rafale, while the Rafale is, factually, a more recent and fully operational design that has nothing to envy to these two (it would rather be the opposite, in fact)…
TooCool_12fer, pulling the nose up is one thing, turning is another.. when I passed my truck drive permit, in the army, snow and ice, we had fun sideslipping while turning at something like 25 mph (4×4 truck slides just nice), yet I would never say it was more manouverable than my car of today
TooCool_12fTo pick a few things apart, where do you get this 30 year gap thing from?
I did not say it has 30 years gap, I say it’s been running after it for 30 years… when they announce “we’ll put this and that inside it”, it’s still waiting to get it when Rafale receives it.. it’s been like that for decades.. even the french, all alone with their single nation budget, who, in the 1990’s had cut severely the funding of the program and delayed the buy by several years, still managed to get the things done faster than the four nations supposed to work together on the Typhoon so, either the French are smarter than the four countries united (I doubt many around here will agree on this), or there was way too much political bickering and waste of time in the Eurofighter program, which was hampered by that.. make your choice
TooCool_12fMoney or political will, it amounts to the same thing, and is irrelevant. The debate here i.e. on Keypub was comparing the options of a new batch of (upgraded) EFs with a German acquisition of Rafales (or F-35s). If it turns out that they can’t spare the funding for either, so be it, but that doesn’t change the fact that between the two Eurocanards, the former is the far more sensible option for the Luftwaffe.
fact is that there’s no “more or less sensible option”… politicians have decided that Rafale wasn’t one… so , comparing a possibility with nothing.. there’s no comparison 😉
would it be better, from the operational stand point, than the EF? as a striker, definitely. Did anyone expect them to even consider the possibility of Rafale acquisition? most certainly no (and if somebody did, it would be time to explain to him a few things about Santa and Easter Bunny 😉 ).
What other point was brouight here was the relationship between Germany and France who claimed some 6 months ago that they’d develop together a replacement for Typhoons and Rafale, yet, as Germans have to replace part of their fleet, they don’t even want to consider the possibility to trade with their “partner”… so much about their definition of partnership (and in the end, it illustrates quite well what I’ve been saying about that ludicrous idea of the “genius” we have for president here in France, to sign something like that with Angela Merkel… it can’t work, unless the French abandon their industry and sovereignity to Germany)
TooCool_12fLike I said before (and you ignored), the F-15E was derived from the F-15 designed with the idea of “not a pound for air to ground”. If you wanted to question the EF’s air-to-ground potential, come up with an actual logical argument on technical grounds with specifics rather than just rhetoric/philosophy.
You just don’t want to understand, right?
The F-15, air superiority fighter, received the investments needed to make it multirole.. the Typhoon has not, and the funny part is that it is mostly because of Germany that it did not have them.. yet you keep claiming that “suffice to invest” to make it good as if it was obvious that the nation we speak about has the will to do it.. it’s not about rhetoric, it’s about blindness.
I’m merely pointing out the rank hypocrisy involved in dismissing the possibility of EF upgrades as ‘wishful thinking’ while at the same time claiming the the Rafale was a genuinely feasible option. No money for upgrades to the Eurofighter but enough money for a (far more expensive) Rafale acquisition? Yeah right.
once more you obviously do not want to understand.. it is not about availability of money, it is about the political will.. Germany never invested as they should have to make it progress as it could have progressed. NEVER. Not that they could not as they were probably the richest partner in the Eurofighter consortium all along, but because there was NO POLITICAL WILL to do it. And today, nothing changes, it is a matter of political will that makes that it WILL NOT receive the funding it needs, just as it is because of political will that they WILL NOT buy the Rafale.
TooCool_12fAre you claiming that an aircraft that ‘wasn’t developed for that purpose’ cannot be used in it? So the F-15E & F-16C/D are failures as strike aircraft in your opinion?
I simply state the reality, even if you don’t like it: it was never (not even today) developed for that purpose. The multirole development of the Typhoon is just like F-22 bombing role.. an afterthought to try to justify it as pretty muvch every aircreaft today HAS to be multirole to have any sort of credibility on the market and in the minds of the politicians who are the ones who decide how much cash an airforce can get.
Well you’ll need a more convincing argument than just stating “it won’t ever be a real striker” Ã la “mine is only true religion” and expecting it to be accepted at face value. If the Typhoon is ‘lagging’ in the strike dept. the obvious answer is to invest in upgrades (unless they choose to acquire the F-35 that is preferred over its older peers by practically every air force).
Typhoon is lagging in that department for two reasons:
– first: it was not developed with that in mind (for example, how about the low wing and narrow landing gear space in the fuselage limiting severely its capability to carry large stuff underneath it.. you can do what you want, but being able to carry enough fuel AND large weapons will require some serious engineering
– second: the will to upgrade was never sufficiently present.. not even today. The British were pretty much the only ones pulling it forwards while the Germans have spent their time delaying, postponing and, basically saying “we don’t need this”.. and now you’d want us to believe that it is just a matter of simple “investing in upgrades”? wake up, what you do is just wishful thinking… it’s Germany we’re talking about… it will be a cold day in hell before they start seriously investing in Typhoon upgrades to try to make it what you wish it to be. Rememebr that they have claiming that “stuff will be there with upgrades” for the last three decades… some of it still isn’t there today
TooCool_12fThis is absurd. German Rafales? No problem. Never mind the induction costs, new training pipeline, difference in munitions & logistics, local workshare etc. Upgrading Eurofighter with CFTs, to the same end? No can do because.. budgets, politics and what have you.
We’re talking tornado replacement. What is absurd is to state tha tthe Typhoon which was not developed for that purpose and had lagged (and still is lagging today) for 30 years behind the Rafale in the multirole department can all of a sudden be the equal of it… the obvious and only logical answer is: it can not. Now, if they decide to concentrate on Typhoons only (which would be a logical political move), ok..
If they decide that they need to buy something else as the Typhoon is not and won’t ever be a real striker, teh Rafale rdefinitely does the job at least as well and probably better than anything they may get from the US, except probably the F-35 once it’s, more or less, finished. Not including the rafale in their study while asking for information about the F-15 and F-18 means that they simply stay away from the Rafale as they don’t wont that to face the questions like “and why that french thingy you’ve been saying is garbage compared to our 9th marvel of the world is bought today to do a job that our thingy can not?”.
Fact is, even if the Typhoon is lagging (and also BECAUSE Typhoon is lagging) behind the Rafale they will not allow the Rafale to be introduced in the GAF… ever.
What’s more, they say they’re planning to develop something in collaboration with the french?
They gotta be kidding…
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