em745, I am also Canadian living in southern Ontario, St. Catharines to be exact, and a sure sign that someone is losing an argument, is when he has no more points to make and dismisses his opponents and tells them to “look it up”. Either you are wrong and giving up or you are right but don’t have the intelligence to convince others. You choose.
As for the Pugachev cobra maneuver, what is this bull about vortex bursting???
During the maneuver, the aircraft’s wing is STALLED!! Now any dictionary defines a stall as the point when a wing stops producing lift perpendicular to the line of flight ( it can still produce drag with an upward vector, Just like a flat plate at a 45 degree angle to the wind ). The vortices help keep the flow energised, ie. at speed, at lower AoA but NOT at 100 degrees (past perpendicular). What brings the Su-27 back to level attitude is NOT related to lift in any way or definition. Came-on, think a little before posting.
The centre of lift moves back during a Pugachev cobra maneuver???
What lift are we talking about at 100 degrees from the horizontal??
At this point its a flat plate moving through the air on momentum alone since the thrust vector is perpendicular to the line of flight and no wing produces lift perpendicular to the line of flight. Do I need to prove basic physical laws???
The wing, being set back on the fusilage acts as an air-brake at this point, and slows the back end of the fusilage faster than the front end, resulting in the pitch foreward, there is NO lift involved in this part of the maneuver.
I stand by all of my comments, since I said an LERX MAY even produce downforce in level flight. Disregard the blended wing/body LERX of the MiG-29 and Su-27 and look at the LERX of the F-18 in level profile. Are you sure they are producing lift? Or do you need appreciable AoA to produce vortex lift?
You are right on most points but one; at a stall, once the flow becomes turbulent and detaches , the centre of lift does not move back and pitches the wing foreward and down. If this happened all stalls would be self correcting.
What actually happens in a stall, when flow becomes turbulent and detached, is loss of speed of local flow over the wing, resulting in increased pressure on top of the wing and loss of lift ( lift depends on difference of airflow speed between top and bottom and according to Bernoulli, the difference in pressure). Sometimes the plane drops like a stone!!
If you manage to keep the airflow energized, at speed that is, even if not laminar, you maintain the difference in speed and in pressure. One way of doing this is, is a vortex flow over the wing. All wings generate a tip vortex where the high pressure underneath rolls over the top of the wing to the lower pressure. The more highly swept the wing is, the more pronounced is this effect. Delta wings have a good amount of vortex flow over all of the leading edge and so tend to stay stable to higher alphas than conventional wings. We can get the same effect on a conventional wing by having sharply swept extensions ahead of the wing, ie. LERXs, or a sharply swept canard foreplane. If you remove the LERXs from an F-18 it would not have any higher alpha capability than an F-104 or a T-38.
I had this discussion once before on this forum. I always thought the S-3 was a very useable airframe for maritime patrol over ‘smaller/shallower’ bodies of water like the Mediterranean. It doesn’t have the legs of some bigger jets or props, but it wouldn’t need long range in the Mediterranean.
It is operator/analyst limited, but with digital linking you’d just need operators of the equipment and analysis is done at the other end.
Heck, you could even mount a SAAB Erieye radar and with updated control computers, have it do AEW over the Mediterranean.
I had read,long time ago, that US was offering them free to certain allies, and it would seem perfect for Greece/ Italy/Spain or even France. Britain and Germany are tasked with the North Atlantic and Baltic/North Sea so need longer range.
em745, you don’t seem to understand the concept of a LERX, even after numerous people have explaned it to you.
Most LERXs have a negative attitude and produce no additional lift (maybe even some downforce ) in LEVEL flight. As the AoA increases, high pressure air under the LERX tends to move to the lower pressure area over the LERX. This is different from a wing where this is to be avoided as it detracts from lift, but is a design criterea for LERXs. As this air moves from bottom, over edge and to top, it sets up a rotation, or a vortex, of high speed air which washes over the wing and keeps flow from becoming turbulent and detaching at high AoA.
There are many ways to produce these vortex, one way being LERXs (F-5e, F-17/F-18 and F-16). Dassault used strakes on the upper inlets to produce them on the M2000 (vestigial canards) and any canard foreplane (even when canard is below wing plane as vortex are only useable at high AoA) will produce them as there is always high-to-low pressure spillage.
So, to recap, canards provide all the benefits of LERXs and also provide trim and rotation/pitch control which would otherwise require a tailplane.
Let me break it down for you, one surface, the canard foreplane, can replace and provide the benefits of both, the LERX and the tailplane.
I also like the way you dismissed the question put to you about the F-16xl. The F-16, very advanced according to you, since it has LERXs, med. aspect wing and tailplanes, was improved immeasurably to the point where it almost won an order against the F-15, simply by giving it a low aspect wing and removing the ‘advanced’ LERXs and tailplane!!!
By the way, ‘swing’ wings which you dismiss as being so 1960s, are actually from the same time frame as LERXs. Northrop, having recognized the high alpha benefits of the small LERX on the F-5, increased it on the F-5e and then went all out on the Cobra concept which became the YF-17, and some might argue ,went too far with them on the F-18. All of this high tech LERX work was done in the 60s, the mission requirement which would make use of them did not materialize until the 70s (high alpha maneuvering). In the 60s the USAF was more interested in low level penetration, and if there was no stealth technology allowing med or even high altitude undetected penetration, swing wings would still provide the most viable solution for the low level penetration mission
Erkokite, carbon fibre is a microwave absorber not a reflector. It was the first RAM, used by the Germans in a WW2 design which had skins of plywood/carbon/plywood sandwich construction. But as to your other point, you are absolutely correct, canards can be made transparent to radar, so why would they be detrimental to stealth as some have argued?
Yes, em745, the F-117 is much less risky than the original design which was a diamond shape and was not guaranteed to fly, even the Have Blue demonstrator/test vehicle was different with inward canted tails instead of butterfly and different wing planform.
I don’t know much about the B-2 competition but I do know that Northrop flew several flying wing designs in the 40s and 50s ( see IAPR ), so a flying wing is not controversial for them.
As for the F-14 all the competitor’s submissions used swing-wings and the only two with practical experience were GD and Grumman (having worked on the F-111B). It didn’t make sense to give it to GD to replace their own failed concept so it was given to Grumman. In effect, the safest choice.
There seems to be some confusion or maybe it hasn’t been explaned properly. US aerospace companies have no problem designing and building prototypes of canard aircraft, and, as some people have stated, have designed and flown more examples of such than any other nation. The US Air Force and Navy are however a very conservative bunch and tend to stick with the tried and true. So if you want to win a competition do you design a high risk, revolutionary aircraft, or do you try to satisfy the expectations of your conservative buyer? Why do you guys think the ATF competition was won by the F-22 rather than the more capable (by all accounts) YF-23? Because it was a less risky developement!!!!
This has happened before also. The lightweight fighter competition was between the F-16, Yf-17 and a Boeing design which was judged a winner until the Air Force decided they wanted a high risk/low risk and went with F-16/YF-17 and threw out the Boeing dsign as too similar to the F-16.
The TFX competition was won by the GD F-111 even though the Boeing entry was judged to be superior but higher risk.
The reluctance to go with canard designs is not with American companies but with US Air Force/Navy.
This forum always gets bogged down in definitions. Look, according to any elementary aerodynamics text, to determine stability or instability, you need to disregard the trimming foreplanes or tailplanes and consider just the mainwing. If the centre of lift is ahead of the centre og gravity, the aircraft will tend to depart in pitch, and is said to be unstable. It then needs downforce on the front or upforce on the rear for controlled flight. A digital flight control system applies these forces using canards or tailplanes, thousands of times per second, and has been described as ‘steering a bicycle backwards while sitting on the hood (bonnet) of a car travelling at 60mph’. Trouble arises when the pilot and FCS both make compensating inputs leading to a divergent situation. This is called a pilot induced oscillation and a PIO was responsible for the loss of the Gripen 17yrs ago.
What is forgotten, however, is that as an aircraft becomes supersonic, its centre of lift (pressure) moves back from the quarter-chord point to about half-chord, which may move it behind the centre of gravity and make the aircraft, now stable, require different fore or aft forces.
Boy this thread moves fast!!
Sferrin, come-on, don’t pretend you’re dumb by making non-sensical arguments and comparing apples to oranges. Of course you can eyeball the aerodynamics of a plane. Because a plane’s aerodynamics are solely dependant on the external structure. A barn door as you point out is clearly aerodynamically inferior to a cean aircraft.
Stealth is slightly different. The material composition, which you can’t see, the internal structure, which you can’t see, and even things like panel fit and spacing affect RCS. In effect, an F-35 with a wooden barn door in front of it, will have the exact same RCS as the clean aircraft, while an F-35 with a metal barn door in front of it will have a vastly increased RCS.
Are there any more of your theories you want me to sink??
Incidentally the point I was trying to make is that Lockheed stealth is a known quantity, they have 50 yrs of experience if you include early U-2 tests and the A-12/SR-71, so I’m confident they’ve acheived the RCS called for by the operational requirement. As for PAK-FA, no-one can say for sure unless they know internal composition/layout and structural composition as well as seeing videos of it. So how these so-called ‘experts’ can comment on the PAK-FA’s RCS, I cannot figure out.
I do hope the Rafale gets ‘active” cancellation as, in my opinion it is the best way to go, and US stealth is going more in that direction already. It does not impose any constraints on the design of the aircraft like ‘traditional’ stealth does. The plane can be designed for agility, ordinance delivery or even transport for that matter, and stealth qualities added on.
This does not involve masking all the radar reflections from all angles of the plane, just the one reflected in the general direction of the emitting aircraft. It involves considerable amounts of signal processing as the incoming signal has to be analised and the reflection has to be modified/attenuated all in real time, but all it really is , is vastly expanded electronic warfare.
I can see stealth upgrades being offered for all current combat aircraft in 15-20 yrs time, much like current radar/avionics upgrades. If France gets in on the ground floor of this emerging technology, its industry stands to make a lot of profit.
As a matter of fact, the Russians haven’t even released the size of the golf ball, marble, beach ball or hot-air balloon that the T-50’s RCS is equivalent to. Ha-Ha-Ha!!
(Before anyone starts with me, this is a joke)
A lot of you guys keep demonstrating your total ignorance of stealth by stating that PAK-FA is stealthier than F-35. I’ll be the first to admit, I DON’T KNOW. As for the rest of you, I’ll repeat, YOU CANNOT QUANTIFY THE STEALTHINESS OF A PLANE BY LOOKING AT IT !!!
Modern stealth design includes internal positioning of metal structures and equipment to reflect and absorb mm-wave radiation (much like cones lining walls of anechoic chambers – internal reflection). The outer ‘skin’, composed for the most part of composite materials, is mostly transparent.
How anyone, having just seen videos of the T-50 and knowing very little else about the plane, can say with any certainty what its degree of stealthiness is, is beyond me
Some people are comparing individual features of the F-35 and saying they could be better and may even be inferior to existing fighters. No-one seems to be comparing the total package.
Even assuming the F-35 is less agile than an F-16 (just as an example), when combined with the element of surprise imparted by its stealth capability, it will probably win every engagement. Other abilities which are conveniently forgotten are V/STOL capability and damage resistance of a bulkier structure.
The only problem with the platform is the constantly escalating cost, but this should have been foreseen for such a demanding requirement and specification.
Doctorate of Philosophy is long form for PhD or a 7yr advanced University degree. Here in Canada , anyway we have BSc, 4yr degree, MSc, 5yr degree and PhD. At least in the sciences.