uss noviceTheoretically, with a meaningful load of about 4 BVRs + 2 WVR missiles, plus about 900km combat radius, only 2 aircraft will have a TWR above 1.0 – the EF-2000 and MiG-35 (both being clearly above 1.0). The Rafale and Gripen follow (close to 1.0), with the Shornet and F-16blk60 being the slugs (well below 1.0).
So, if the issue is take-off from Leh (v.rarefied atmosphere) with a “meaningful” load, the most critical features on the fighter would be power and lift (wingloading/area?); clearly the US jets suffer the most in these parameters. My guess is that the 2 fighters that succeeded (if this was the failpoint) were the MiG-35 and the Typhoon.
If the point of failure was engine switch on/off after soaking, I’d think that most of these a/c would do well although here the French and Russians are better aware of Indian conditions than the rest. Again, the Americans would be at a disadvantage ’cause they simply have little idea of the Indian environment, iirc the F-18E/F had issues with sand at Jaisalmer after being left out in the open
In either case, the MiG-35 should have cleared the probems at Leh imho, but I could well be wrong.
USS.
uss noviceOther news still from Air&Cosmos related to the 4th french rafale Batch.
This new rafale batch could be equipped with the 9t version of the M88 as several middle east client are interested in such an engine. UAE, Koweit and Lybia to name a few.
Snecma intend to offer this engine to the AdA with the same MCO costs as previous version. As a consequence AdA could accept to go for a more powerful engine for the new batch of rafale.
Lawdamussy! That will give the Rafale an almost 2.0 TWR ! 😮 Teeny weeny demon! What will tiffy fans say! :diablo:
USS.
uss noviceHey Otaku,
Great pics! O.K. here is my bet – the 9.61 has the Zhuk-A (1064 TRM) while the 9.67 probably still carries the 680 TRM model.
I base this on comparing the placement of the nose cone (radar transparent section in dark grey) between the 9.61 and the older 2007 MiG-35 (bort 154 iirc). The 154 and the 9.67 have the antenna way forward in the nose cone (distance can be estimated from IFR probe tip) compared to the 9.61.
IOWs, the 9.61 carries a larger Zhuk A, and they managed to do so by stuffing the set further up in the nose – some thing that was alluded to by Zhuk/MiG folks at AI 09. JMT
USS.
uss noviceQ&A with Ilya Fyedorov, Executive Director of NPO Saturn:
Looks like ‘117s’ all round (including Su-30MKI?)……let’s see what MMPP Salyut has to say about that…
Otaku,
I was under the impresion that MKI engines were infact produced by UMPO, so I can see why the 117S can migrate to advanced flankers.
Over the past few years, MMPP Salyut has led Russian aircraft engine production in terms of sales. Its turnover exceeded $270 million (with profits of $58 million) in 2001, rose to $300-320 million in 2002, and is estimated to climb to $400 million in 2003. Sales of AL-31F engines constitute 70% of total sales. The company spe*cializes on deliveries to China, thus splitting the market with UMPO, which covers deliveries to India.
Again,
At present, it (UMPO) concentrates on the production of AL-31FP engines for Su-30MKI fighters.
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/6-2002/di/cedm/
USS
uss noviceOne thing thats bugging me, how much more complex are the Mig-35 VS the Mig-29K..?
I know the requirements are different, and the biggest issue are the Radar but never the less..Seems to me Mig RAC are doing ok on those 29K, AIF seems pleased with them afaik.
Why is the Mig-35 demonstrator doing so badly and the 29K not?
Seems to me a lot of disinformation flaoting around here..Thanks
Frankly, I doubt that performance is a problem. The issue is somewhat different –
It is quite well known that MiG left a bitter taste in the mouth for the IAF thanks to the spares/maintenance issues re. both the MiG-21 and the MiG-29. Once bitten, twice shy and all that – the IAF has never shown any inclination towards any fulcrum ever since – not additional MiG-29s in the 90s, not the MiG-29M in the early 2000s, and not the SMT either (other than the upgrade of course). They’ve gone the Sukhoi way (MKI and now Pakfa) despite Pogo and Federov both having pretty good standing with IAF programs being moved to lead MiG.
The IN MiG-29K otoh, could be perceived as an entirely different issue. One – the IN had little choice in the matter since the Ks were part and parcel of the Gorky deal, two – the IN has almost been a development partner in the MiG-29K ever since the late 90s (so, in some ways it is their baby too), three – the IN has been careful in drawing up a contract that allows for a build up spares within India so as to ensure smooth supply, modern infrastructure has been critical in the navy contract. And of course, it might help that the navy never got bit by MiG.
USS.
uss noviceUSS,
MMRCA trials are due to be completed in April, as you well know from BR forum, the ’35 is said to have performed poorly in the 2/3 stages thus far.
So the thing about “airframe gripes” seems to have merit then? What was it I wonder – too long to replace engines and turnaround time?
However, Phazotron-NIIR is due in court on March 10th over a $10mn loan default, so we’ll have to wait and see.
Well, may be they get bailed out too? 😀
USS.
uss novicePlaneman,
Nice job (again!). Now if we could compare this to the russian GBAD/SAM coverage, that would make a more complete picture. I believe SOC had done something to that effect. For all you know, where there are fighter coverage gaps, you may have S-300 types crawling all over the place.
USS>
uss noviceErakis does have a point but so does Hawk. There is little to doubt that the Mica does bring in a degree of versatility in options. However, there is also little doubt that French goods cost a damned packet. Apart from the lack of export orders for the Rafale, a lot of French customers are feeling the heat in trying to keep/upgrade their MIrage 2000 fleet.
Greece – upgrades only a few m2ks
India (despite its economic boom) has struggled to sign the contract to upgrade its 50 odd M2ks, the cost is equal to $ 40 million per bird, well over the unit cost of a brand new MiG-29K. Of course this includes weapons such as the Mica, but still, that is a LOT of $$s. The temptation to drop the upgrade and go with extra MKIs or MRCA must weigh heavily on the decision makers. The only reason the contract will go through imho is because the IAF has a dwindling fleet and badly needs uber a/c, secondly, India values its relationship with France and this will be presented as a strategic type deal when Sarkozy goes calling.
Taiwan – is whining for inadequate support.
Brasil, Peru, Egypt et al don’t seem to want to upgrade.
Qatar would rather sell its 12 odd M2k-5s.
The only upgrade that seems to have gone on without much whining is the UAE upgrade where petro dollars are in plenty. French goods, it seems are increasingly the province of the extremely rich. Shame really.
USS.
uss noviceImho, the MiG-35 is the least likely victor. However, it looks like the Russkies will be bagging 29 more MiG-29Ks, 50 more Su-30MKIs & FGFA/PAK-FA……they’ll be happy with that.
The only way the MiG-35 may get a look-in is if the IAF adopts a high-cost & low-cost mix like Eurocanards & MiG-35. I think for political reasons the US contenders should be avoided altogether.
Otaku,
Any news in the Russian world about MiG-35 flight trial evaluations (in india), any comments etc? More importantly, any news on the weapons trials in Russia? – the IAF is on record saying the whole process will be over pretty soon, including trials in foreign countries. Point is, MiG/UAC were getting a production MiG-29K airframe suitably modded to act as a definitive (or close to definitive) version of the MiG-35. Supposedly, a 1000+ TRM AESA has already found its way in the nose of this bird.
While I’d agree that the 35 seems to have little chance in this contest, I wouldn’t be surprised if all its doodads find their way on to the 29K. Also, the 35 (bleak though its chances seem) may find other buyers; great potential, and a challenge to the eurocanards and 16s/18s.
USS.
uss noviceWell it seems like EADS, MiG and Boeing seem to be a bit optimistic at this point in time. LM, and Saab have gone surprisingly quiet and the Dassault never made too much noise in the first place.
While it sounds like a twin engined e’canard vs. the f-18 might be the end result, question remains – how can India possibly get 126 of these birds @ $ 10 billion. AFAIK, the Shornet cost close to $ 7 billion for 36 pieces (Brazil) and the Tiffy has always been iffy with the price – the Saudis did manage 72 birds @ 10 odd billion though. However, India expects a more developed a/c than the Saudi bird, will that make the cost go up further?
Perhaps it is $ 10 billion without the spares, support etc? And the total deal may go well above $ 15 billion 😮
USS.
uss noviceWell, since we all seem to be in that frame of mind anyway, here is my take – don’t screw with the Argentinians, they’ll get you at the world cup. Phoon or not, Maradona is back with La Albiceleste 😀 Hand of God anyone?
USS.
uss noviceI have always felt that Boeing would have done well to offer India the Hornet F-18C albeit with either the 414s or spruced up 404s – IN20s or the RM12s AND a solid AESA. That would have given the IAF everything it would have been looking for – A2A, and A2G.
– Strong TWR (something that no hornet has, super or not)
– No drag issues (canted pylons and all)
– Decent range – remember the F-18 carried around 5000kg of fuel with a high fuel fraction. Enough for a medium sized bird any way.
– Excellent payload – the F-18 could carry upto 7 tonnes iirc on 11 hps.
Here was a bird that would’ve improved on the original and later shornet’s flight performance, while at the same time providing more than enough A2G options. Too late now i guess 🙁
USS.
uss noviceA little funny
I have not read any single complain from the Mig’s AESA
While were complains for the F18 Aesa
Either way, just pointing it out…no evidence for the supossed lack of performance for this ‘primitive’ radar…still people repeat it as it would be a fact..
True enough, in fact, if newsreports are true, the MiG-35 prototype getting ready for weapons trials in russia will feature the all up of ZhuK A with over 1000 TRMs. This will be interesting indeed, a MiG-29K airframe suitably trimmed and stuffed with the Zhuk A.
USS.
uss noviceI think variations are redundant. So it is a MiG-21, then a MiG-21Bis, then a MiG-21Bison :rolleyes: Naah, stick to one. The IAF not too long ago (2002) had the following all at once :
1) SU-30MKI
2) MiG-21
3) MiG-23
4) MiG-27
5) MiG-29
6) MiG-25
8) Canberra
9) Jaguar
10) Mirage 2000
And thats without variations on the flanker and MiG-21, otherwise you’d have urm Su-30K+MiG-21UM+MiG-21bis+MiG-21bison = 13 😀 Oops, forgot the MiG-21FL, make that 14!
USS.
uss novicewell those were Boeing articles. they never gave any inside information and only mentioned the general data and mentioned the good things.
but reports that originated in India from guys who got to talk to some IAF officers involved said that the SH had issues with dust and sand particles that gave them trouble with reliability during the Jaisalmer leg of the trials. and interesting thing is that Boeing did not bring out any report on the Leh leg of the high altitude trials. If those had gone off well, I’m pretty sure they’d have crowed about it as well.
This seems to be in contrast with what the Rafale guys were saying. IIRC dassault chaps pointed out their ability to deal with the heat / rough conditions at Jaisalmer as one of their strengths.
@ Erkokite,
WHile I agree with your evaluation re. the rafale. I’d disagree reg. the MiG-35. I too feel that it may not have made it to round 2 (although MiG chaps expressed great confidence very recently). Point is, if MiG was thrown out, it wouldn’t be for flight trials since it has been one of the only IAF birds to perform well at Leh and has v.strong flight performance characteristics. Although past maintenance issues might have been a drawback.
USS.
USS.
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