uss noviceI suspect there’s a whole load of funky things going on in that jet pipe.
Has anyone mentioned the round ball behind the cockpit by the way?
http://www.aviapedia.com/files/fighters/PAK_FA/PAK-FA-1.jpg
Odd looking yoke… I immediately thought of the rear facing camera on Clints wonderjet..
Any speculation? Could it be another IRST?
Erm, probly a MAWS housing like the one on the MiG-35?
In any case, that pic from Quadro and Otaku clearly shows intake work done by the russians to hide the blades. Somewhat forms an )( at the very beginning in addtion to what might be done further down the intake. Obviously, the engineers at Sukhoi know the why as well as how in terms of reducing reflection (despite what internet armchair types think:rolleyes:).
Great bird.
USS.
uss noviceRe. MRCA
No scrapping! Spend $$$$s in a JV with France on purchase (40-60 birds) of F3 Rafale AND future development of Rafale – Stealthy Rafale NG = MCA with Kaveri engines. Thus the Snecma-Gtre venture will be put to good use, further France has indicated willingness to hookup the kaveri to the Rafale.
Electronic suite – French, Indian.
Weapons – French, Indian.
Ya, it’ll cost a packet but pumping in the $ 10+ billion for the MRCA plus another few billion for the MCA in one project would bring some results. IIRC, Dassault already had plans for a stealth design, but scrapped it in favor of the current Rafale. With decent $$$s + input from India, a stealth rafale could be resurrected.
USS.
uss noviceAWESOME! Expecting some great pics by all accounts!
USS.
uss novice< 200 Raptors and > 2000 F-35s… yeah, we’re quacking in our boots 😉
F-35s? Don’t worry they’ll have enough flanker variants to blow that fat boy out of the sky :diablo: No need for Pakfa there.
USS
uss noviceAs I said in the IAF thread, I see it as a good sign for Rafale, because a Kaveri-Snecma engine (with 90kN like Snecma officials said) would solve a possible thrust problem and Dassault offered the integration of the engine before. Also this engine could be used in export LCAs too, although all IAF LCAs will use GE, or hopefully EJ engines.
Although I really don’t see thrust as an issue with the Rafale (it is powerful enough), this JV could augur well for the Rafale in the MRCA. Combine it with Dassault’s original offer to reegine the Rafale with said kaveri, and India’s quest for a Rafale like MCA, the Rafale might just be the ideal for an MRCA even if bought in fewer numbers. The MCA then, could be a follow on with a high level of commonality with the Rafale. Raffles, with a higher thrust engines + internal bay = 5th Gen MCA 😀
USS.
uss noviceWeapons bay for the Su-30MKI? I assume it will be between the intakes, but how much can you really fit in there and for what reduction in RCS. Especially at the cost of weight and complexity….
Here’s some pictures I found, one looks like a Photoshop job, the other shows a wind tunnel model of questionable relevance:
http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=15570_157_122_459lo.jpg
Arkali, thanks for the wind tunnel model, haden’t seen that one before. If they can manage 4 X R-77s/Astra with two wingtip R-73s, it’d be useful. Something like the Silent Eagle.
As far as the Brahmos goes, I doubt all the MKIs will be plumbed for it, only a couple of sqds would be my guess.
USS.
uss noviceFair is fair. The JF-17 now looks simply like a JF-17 nothing else. I hardly see too much similarity between it and the MiG-21. That might have been the case earlier, but as of now, the JF-17 looks pretty different. Kudos to the PAF for not settling for anything less, and for getting the Chinese to constantly improve upon the original design.
Btw, any news on the JF-17 radar? Also does any one know what the size of the antenna / nose cone on the bird is? Further, what sort of ECM fit can we expect? RWR? MAWS? LWS? ELS? Any answers to what particular brands are being fitted here?
USS.
uss noviceNo they won’t. The AL-41F was specifically designed for the heavyweight MFI/MiG-1.44- so it won’t dimensionally fit in the T-50.
The challenge is to scale-down/replicate the ’41F’s tech so it fits in the PAK-FA.NPO Saturn AL-31F @ 12.5t (thrust) for Su-27
NPO Saturn 117C/ AL-41F-1A (117S) @ ~14.5t for Su-35BM (engines already ordered)
NPO Saturn 117 @ 15+ t for prototype PAK-FA (tbc)MMPP Salyut AL-31FM1 @ 13.5t for Su-27SM, Su-30(?), Su-33 & Su-34(?)
MMPP Salyut AL-31FM2 @ 14.2t (R&D only)
MMPP Salyut AL-31FM3-1 @ 14.5t (nominal), 15.3t (claimed max. achieved, R&D)
MMPP Salyut AL-31FM3-2 @ 15t (nominal) has new hp compressor with 6 stages instead of AL-31F’s 9 (R&D).NPO Saturn AL-41F @ 18+ t for defunct MiG MFI/1.44 programme
PAK-FA definitive 5G engine @ 16-16.5t (projected), iIrc, MMPP Salyut is now the lead developer.
So Otaku, would you know what is on the MKI? NPO Saturn AL-31F @ 12.5 tons or MMPP Salyut AL-31FM1 @ 13.5 tons? Reason I ask is there were reports (ages ago) that the AL-31FP on the MKI was derived from the AL-31FM; some websites actually showed the MKI specs sheet with 13.5 tons thrust. Thanks much.
Also, there are reports saying the upcoming upgrade for the MKI will include higher thrust engines along with an advanced Bars NO11M with Irbis type performance. Not to mention an internal bay. Any news on the ECM suite? My guess is that the 2014 upgrade will consist of the new Bars + Brahmos capability. Better engines, AESA and internal bay will come up during a later upgrade (2025?)
USS.
uss noviceTHe only real weakness I see in the Raptor is its size, which will make it easier to ID than say a rafale or phoon. Of course, this is limited to WVR, a HMS/IRST equipped foe might also make it more difficult ala MiG-35.
However, this is only if something has gone terribly wrong and the raptor has not managed to blow away said opposition BVR, would be suprising. As far as the Spectra vs. Amraam thing goes, the moment missiles are away, the battle is already in favor of the shooter (raptor), if it does not blow away the rafale, it’ll probly mission kill it.
No, the Raptor is not invincible but it is the closest thing to it.
USS.
uss noviceI’m not. EF GmbH have not been good at highlighting previous successes (eg the JG73 incident).
Well they certainly have not been shy about touting various capabilities of the tiffy, what with the bird being “next only to the F-22” in A2A, RCS reduction etc OR chewing up rafales, eagles and super flankers all in the course of a single and no doubt, modest meal.
That’s not the case.
Perhaps not; I was only replying to COla that a host of possibilities (possibly not in the Rafale’s favor) exist other than those pointed out by him as the reasons for said scores.
That’s not ‘traditionally’ true. Nor is it clear that whether Rafale flew ‘red’, and, to be fair, whether it suffered losses while doing so.
IIRC, the article or whatever snippet it was from Cola’s post showed that both a/c flew similar sorties, blue and red.
I don’t think that EF GmbH’s lack of response indicates that Colonel Grandclaudon was necessarily being entirely accurate, or wholly truthful, however tempting it may be for a Rafale fan to believe what he said.
I certainly won’t cast aspersions or doubt a professional’s comments under these circumstances – he very well could tarnish the image of the Adla and I think he knows that. Further, there were no glaring errors in his comments, just an observation plain and simple. If it was some gent like the one who pointed out the many drawbacks of the MKI @ Mountain Home with a series of glaring errors and the complete silence after an IAF rebuttal and subsequent USAF disclaimer, then yes I’d doubt the man. But so far nothing has come forth, neither from the Adla nor from the other side. What EF GmbH’s silence indicates in this case, more than anything else is that the scores were spot on.
Nonsense. The RAF are notoriously unwilling to comment on the results of training exercises (eg the F-15 DACT at Coningsby) and are always keen to avoid getting into unseemly ‘pis.sing matches’, however frustrating that may be for the Typhoon fanboys. You certainly cannot conclude from the lack of response that the only logical explanation is the one put forth by Lt. colonel Grandclaudon. As Nicholas 10 was gracious enough to accept.
Ridiculous! So instead of relying on a gent who obviously is in a position to know, we rely and speculate based on internet fanboys or journalists? Sorry, but this is a solid source and so far has not been denied, irrespective of RAF’s silent professionalism and fan boyism notwithstanding.
Yes, it did. As a journalist I know how often people look you in the eye and tell outright lies at such events. Merely being misleading, or not telling the whole truth is entirely routine.
As a non journalist and layman I certainly know how easily journos can do a LOT worse. Sorry but for one such as myself the words of a professional hold a lot more water than journalistic speculation. As far as Grandclaudon lying, it would reflect on the professionalism of the entire Adla so is quite unlikely. As far as journos typing crap and mudslinging, it is the norm these days, and most readers are aware of this. I am afraid Jacko, but your profession offers little that is trustworthy. No offence meant of course, I do enjoy your arguments – one sided as they seem, often they liven up the discussion.
And that can serve to bring out solid stuff from other posters.
I’m not going to be rude and suggest that such a conclusion is ‘dumb’ but I would suggest that it’s premature on the basis of the evidence so far.
My conclusion is plain and simple – the Rafale has done well at the ATLC meet; there is little denial from any worthy quarters about this.
Indeed!
Not all PR is bad, some is useful and even necessary. I think Grandclaudon’s statements fall into this category.
The professionals who determine procurement decisions will already know exactly what happened. Rafale’s performance at ATLC will not swing any extra sales. .
That is arguable – for one, it is not the professionals alone that count. A number of evaluations (such as the dutch one pointed out earlier) show very high appraisals of the rafale, but it was the JSF that got it. Similar with Korea.
That’s entirely speculative.
True, no more than my opinion. Could be entirely wrong.
@ Cola –
My conclusion was only this – in the absence of any denials/protests/disclaimers, Grandclaudon’s statement holds weight. Irrespective or imagined ROEs or assumptions, the scores do stand and at very least indicate that the RAfale performed admirably.
USS.
uss noviceWell, it’s just as I though, so here are some comments:
So, Rafale scored 7/1 against Ty/Red side? Now, considering “Red side” flies with onboard sensors only and with WVR missiles, in that context reducing MICA’s range to give ASRAAM a chance to shoot at all, makes sense, but hardly any point. Given the claim that Rafale flew “Red team” too, we can only imagine how Rafale fared there and it wouldn’t surprise me if it got banged 0/8. (I’m pretty sure F22 would got banged too in that setup).
Are you sure that the “red side” did not have external inputs (AWACS/GCI) and that only the blue side had this support? Again, how can you be certain that the red side did not have BVR weapons? More importantly, if the scenario is as per your description above, how come the other “non rafale” members of the blue team not get kills or similar scores? As far as the Rafale being “banged” by another Rafale, I recall reading something to the effect that Rafale pilots were quite surprised by the fact that they could detect the EF-2k a lot earlier than the Rafale.
Another thing is that, “EF carried more” and was “above Rafale”.
This most probably means that Rafales flew A/GCI, while EF flew CAPs and/or swing tasks. I don’t think there’s a need to specially emphasize the importance of this and overall concept of initiative in the air, but let’s do it just in case.
So, flying low gives your sensors (radar/IR) better range at equal output power and if Rafales called IR shots, that means they approached in silence. If externally guided (AWACS/Ground), the low plane can track while beam-ride high one, thus completely denying it tracking and therefore dictate terms of battle and have initiative.
Lot of assumptions here. Flying high gives certain distinct advantages to fighters esp.BVR. Furthermore, normally it is strikers that try fast and low stuff, so it is equally possible (perhaps more likely) that the rafales were actually flying omnirole missions with restrictions that go with such profiles. The EF-2000, if it was flying high, providing CAP was then essentially burdened purely with an A2A load out; if at all it carried more, the excess was probly in terms of EFTs. I have a feeling that the Mica IIR/OSF/Spectra combo was the decisive factor here.
Few questions for the end…
– What was the score when Rafale flew “Red team”? EF equal handicap.
Indeed, I am sure the EF PR gents would have been all over the place if things would’ve gone in their favor, which only lends further credibility to the French claim. If in fact, the EF never flew blue team, it contradicts your quotation.
– What happened when Rafale flew swing/CAP/whatever heavy configuration? EF equal handicap.
What if the Rafale flew CAP results were even more lopsided? (although I doubt this myself). Why would an aircraft fly at low altitude unless it was to avoid ground air defences? Esp. when range/endurance becomes a factor at lower altitudes? The most one can glean from this EF- above and rafale below is that the rafale, played to its strengths, and it is stronger at lower altitude than the EF2k.
What happened when Rafale got above EF? EF equal handicap.
Good question. It seems that both types flew similar sorties blue and red – why are the EF folks quiet? Traditionally, they’d jump on such scores if they were in favor of the EF. In light of this unorthodox EF position, one concludes that the actions of the Rafale did in fact speak louder than the wonderful simulations and tall talk of EF reps. This is not to diss the EF-2K, but I think under certain circumstances, the Rafale has an edge
To conclude.
As usual, only partial truth (very partial in this case) was disclosed in the report from “French Lt.Colonel” and it’s pretty obvious he found himself in the same situation, mr.Beesley is in LM, today. This is why establishing personal credibility is stupid and irrelevant. They all say what they must, if want to keep the job.
Sorry, if things were that partial as you point out esp. since it came from a professional source, there would’ve been some rebuttals and retractions. Since these are not available, the logical, and in fact the only conclusion is the one put forth by said lt. colonel. Remember Beesley represents LM, the Lt. Col. afaik represents not some corporate entity but a professional national fighting force.
Another good pointer of “worth” of this score was the fact that no news agencies relayed that report, except that once press conference (which I didn’t find anywhere, btw) and so it was most probably an (unsuccessful) attempt to sway Brazil, France’s way since mr.Lula declared Rafale buy delay a few days later.
Ahem, I thought the declaration came at an official press conference. Can some more informed poster confirm?
So, why nobody denied this result? Because it was so far off any point that apparently no one even figured there’s a need to publish it in the first place, while apparently French position is such that it called for such a desperate measure. Well, there’s no dignity in business and Dassault must sell.
so much for impartiality.
Now, this is where knowing your way around an aircraft helps and keeps you out of dumb conclusions, like ones many French posters managed to draw from this report.
I always thought highly of French posters here, but after seeing many of them falling down to pfcem’s level, I must say I was rather disappointed.No offense guys…
I dunno about French posters and “dumb” conclusions, but I am not French, and hopefully not too dumb either but it seems that the Rafale has done well to shut up critics that were quick to jump on its inadequacy as an A2A bird. Nothing more than that. A good bit of much needed PR – and that too from a professional event, not some tall claims via vague simulations. As an aviation enthusiast, I am happy for the Rafale, hopefully it will influence some exports.
This is not to diss the EF-2K; as a platform the two birds seem very similar with the Ef having a slight edge in energy and higher altitudes, and the rafale having better stealth characteristics and possibly slower performance. In this particular event I think the spectra/osf/mica iir combo has sprung a bit of a surprise although I’d bet that it could’ve been more equal under other circumstances. JMT.
USS.
uss noviceI do like the Raptor 😀
You categorized Typhoon and Raptor on the same mould as the Rafale’s prey. I care not about Typhoon being eaten alive by Rafale but Raptor was not you should have acknowledged that. 😉
Don’t be a twit and try to split hair – the words used were meant purely to convey (and I believe does this well enough) that the rafale is a decent A2A performer; obviously others got this point well enough.
There was nothing there to diss either the tiffy or the Raptor. It is a given that the Raptor is in a class of its own, perhaps not invincible but the next best thing anyway. Still, it does not mean that one errs just by writing the three aircraft in the same sentence, especially when the line is not meant to critique any one aircraft :rolleyes:
USS
uss noviceFOR THE nTH TIME
THE RAFALE DID NOT CHEW UP THE RAPTOR
RAFALE LOST JUST ONCE, (IF IT HAD WON THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN PUBLICISED) AND IS HAILED AS AN ACHIEVEMENT SHOWS TO ME THE SUPERIORITY OF THE RAPTOR
relax mate.. breathe slowly and read again what he stated…
he never said that rafale chewed the raptor.. actually, he said that from the results, nobody could conclude it would do so (be it against typhoon or raptor), but only that it was a serious oponent and which anyone should consider as such rather than some mudmover with limited A2A capability as some like to pretend
Must really like the Raptor ! 😀 Quad, relax – try yoga, should help!
USS.
uss noviceI am not taking sides here but I’ve said this before and stand by it – the Rafale seems to have done rather well in the UAE. Indeed, the absence of any rebuttal either from the USAF or RAF in this matter only lends greater credibility to the claims (rumored reasons notwithstanding).
One thing is for sure, the statements made by the Adla rep. are more worthy to me than the staggeringly one sided results of simulations at least.
Not to say that the Rafale will chew up tiffies and raptors in a hurry, but in this particular event it looks like the Rafale showed why it ought to be regarded an up to date air superiority fighter, thereby debunking he undeserved reputation it had gathered (for whatever reason) that it was inferior in this role.
USS.
uss noviceJust a thought –
What if they tinkered around with the conformal bay thereby allowing for a wider variety combinations and permutations – say 2 X R33 + 4 X R77 + 4 X R73. Get the inlet to point a little lower, just enough to hide the compressor faces.
And voila, you have a relatively stealthy beast ala F-15 Silent Eagle 😀
USS.
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