uss noviceWhat a muck! With the french getting over a long depression, the EF being too expensive, the U.S being unreliable, only the 35 and the Gripen are left.
I like the 35 being a fulcrum fan and all; but the Gripen NG seems v.promising -esp. with the possibility of doing a follow on MCA with SAAB. The IAF gets its much wanted diversification as well. Only trouble is the Gripen’s engine – US made ; perhaps they can buffer this with EJ-200s for the LCAs.
USS.
uss noviceDo you want to update the software before doing this operation ? Note that computer will have to be restarted in order to benefit of the latest functionnalities…
Downloading…
Installing…
Error while installing the update, call your customer support service to resolve the problem.
😀
:D:D:D That is funny!
USS.
uss noviceUnfortunately, instead of Arthuro or Kovy types, they must be sending the DARE2s it seems, and consequently lose the entire deal. :p:p
😀 Shame really esp. when one thinks that most Indians tend to be pretty gung ho about the Rafale. Still, I guess they’re nursing a bit of a wound – what with the expectations of the M2k-5 deal being totally shattered.
Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Yeah, I noticed the Su-35 mentioned too, Scorps. I’d love the IAF to buy a few dozen……and I certainly wouldn’t put it past Mr. Pogo to come up with a deal.
Wasn’t there an offer to India around the time of MAKS?
Well an order of another 50 odd MKI (perhaps even more) seems to be on the cards. Single seat MKIs anyone? I’d like to see that (just for a change).
USS
uss noviceWell, you never know, Scoot may have put his finger on a possibility. Is the Gorky out of contention? Is the supposed interest in the CVF a backup in case Gorky negotiations go downhill? Not a bad move really, the jump to Super Carrier was rumored earlier anyway. Now it also provides a bargaining chip vis a vis the Gorky negotiations.
The IN is on record saying that they can get another 5-7 years from the Viraat. THis reduces the urgency some – the IAC should be online by then. If not there is always another British ship that they may look at as an interim/quick solution. :diablo:
Still a couple of cons –
I’d have liked to have seen a nuclear propulsion for the larger boat.
What does it do for Indo-Russki relations? (Would be awful if the Chinese got a hold of the Gorky, wouldn’t it?).
USS.
uss noviceI think it is high time the french come up with some real dynamic proposals – an all out rafale purchase seems well beyond the Indian budget of about 10 billion USD.
But the French could offer a mixed package with UAE+Greek M2k-5s + 60 odd rafales and weapons for that price. Numbers, quick acquisition and tech – all in one smooth cuppa. 🙂
USS.
uss noviceSo now that we are settled that one of the reasons why the IAF can manage a far greater inventory is labor cost, the question begs to be asked –
why the emphasis on life time ownership costs on the MRCA? Even if the western a/c are a tad better than say a fulcrum or flanker, will the massive difference in upfront costs (which are all in $$$ amounts) ever be offset by marginal differences in ownership costs (which are in Rs)?
How will the western birds ever stand a chance? The Gripen perhaps. The way I see it, the MRCA race is all about the IAF wanting a western bird, period. All other factors (commonality, ownership costs etc) are just eyewash.
The IAF always wanted the M2k or any other “western” bird; little russia can do to win this one.
USS.
uss noviceWell I agree, particularly given that Fornof mentions the tactics they used to gain advantage over the Su-30MKI were learnt flying against F-22’s in the first place.
My point is if an experienced pilot flying an F-15 or F-16 can employ such tactics then there is no reason why a pilot flying a Typhoon can’t also. I don’t necessarily believe that the story published in AFM is true but it’s not totally implausible either given that even a well flown F-15 or F-16 can manage what was claimed there.
Assuming that the tactic worked, it would be so in case of novices on the MKI. Once the pilots on the MKI learn; it won’t work.
Secondly, you assume that just cause USAF pilots who have trained well against the F-22 and are therefore capable of such tactics, tiffy pilots will be able to do the same. Do the tiffy pilots train against F-22s or other TVC equipped a/c regularly? No. The tiffy is no doubt capable enough – but what if the pilots have not really trained for anything like what the MKI does? Surprises would be in store, no?
The key it seems is not the a/c but the training – and the IAF jocks were noobs at Idaho iirc.
In either case, the IAF doesn’t have much to worry about. I don’t see it (with current MKIs) facing the tiffy anytime soon; and by the time it may have to, the MKIs will be far superior platforms thanks to the CIP upgrade. And then there is the Pakfa.
Sort of tough on all eurocanards really, esp. the expensive ones – once the Pakfa and JSF get online, they will be hardpressed – in terms of performance and market share.
USS.
uss noviceI have Yefim latest book on Mig-29
The newest Mig-29K ( izdeliye 9.41 ) has the following statistics
Powerplant: 2x RD-33MK ( 2x 9000 kg full a/b )
Empty weight kg : 12,400
NTOW kg : 18,550
MTOW kg : 24,500
Ordnance kg : 5,500
Internal fuel kg : 5,200
G limit: 8
Effective Range in km
on internal fuel : 1,850
with 3 drop tank : 3,000
with 3 drop tank and : 5,500
one fuel top upLooking at the Mig-29M2 data from Yefim , the ordnance load of ~ 5,500 kg for Mig-29K and ~ 6,500 kg for Mig-35 is the correct figure.
IIRC, Yefim Gordon’s “Famous Russian A/c” was published in 2006 (or is there a newer version out?). Don’t think the current production variant K was flying then. Although the 9.41 (Preproduction) did fly around feb 2007. Anyways, rosoboronexport puts it @ 6500kg. I believe there was another source stating the same. THings might have changed in the last 2-3 years for the prod variants. In fact I clearly remember Mig’s press release in 2005 quoting exactly the same numbers for payload/fuel as the ones above (matching Gordon’s book) but they always put the MTOW at 22400kg.
Anyways, the numbers that you put up don’t add up:
12400kg empty
5200kg internal fuel
5500kg payload
Equals about 23100kg.
WHere does the extra 1400kg come from in the MTOW? I understand pilot, oils/fluids/gun ammo/pylons etc. But it surely can’t weight 1400kg? Added l8r: I just checked Gordon’s Book and found that he puts the MTOW of the MiG-29M @ 23700kg and its max payload @ 6500kg! So, you have empty weight of 23700-6500+5200 = 12000kg, I guess deducting the additional weight of fluids etc, the weight would be around 11600kg (which is the published weight of the K). What makes no sense however, is why the K would carry 1 ton less and weigh 1 ton more in terms of MTOW. My guess is that the 5500kg he put in that chart is a typo. Esp. when you consider that the original K is shown to carry more payload than the M! Go figure.
Also, the BR source, which credits Y.Gordon’s book – shows MTOW as 22400kg, which was the figure on migavia until very recently, when they upped it to 24500kg. In fact, the 22.4 ton remained on the mig site until – 2008-09. It changed to 24500kg probly in the last 6-10 months. I had never seen a source stating 24500kg before that, only now with Rosoboronexports catalogue do we have a match, and rosboro puts the payload @ 6500kg. Ditto for the M.
All very confusing – but I think 24.5 ton MTOW makes sense with 6500kg payload +5200kg fuel and 12500kg empty
USS.
uss noviceNo , the Mig-29K carries a payload of 5,500 kg ( source )
Austin,
That source is now dated although it still is a good reference for information that is otherwise unavailable. MiG @ migavia.ru (the official website) and the rosoboronexport chaps now show the K weighing @ 24500kg MTOW with a 6500kg payload. I believe the 6500kg payload figures came out at the latest Maks 2009 show. Extrapolating from this we have:
24500kg – MTOW (from Migavia)
6500kg – max payload (Rosoboronexport Catalog –http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/air_craft/aircraft_20-24.pdf)
5500kg – max internal fuel (from the Yefim Gordon’s 2007 work quoted @ BR)
12500 – Empty weight (approximately).
The MiG-35 is about 800kg (pibu 4/2006 – Flug Revue) lighter than the 29K. According to the original specs, the M/35 was about 1100kg heavier than the K (12600kg). This puts the MiG-35 between 11400-11600kg, v.similar to the M. No wonder therefore that the russkis didn’t bother to send in the newer version for the flight evals.
USS.
uss noviceLooking at the statistics and rough comparison between IN Mig-29K and Mig-35
The Mig-35 is ~ 1 Ton lighter than Mig-29K in NTOW , ~ 1 Ton heavier than Mig-29K in MTOW and can carry ~ 1T more weapons load on its 11 hardpoint.
For practical weapon/fuel load the Mig-35 will have a better T/W ratio than Mig-29K for the same 9T thrust of RD-33MK,the RD-33MK lacks an upgrade path compared to EJ-200 and F-414 peers.
Not necessarily. IIRC, Klimov announced in 2006 that it was looking at a 10 ton variant. No news so far though. But the MK seems like an excellent update to the ser.3.
Btw, the MiG-29k is one ton heavier in MTOW (24500kg) thanks to carrier ops gear. IOWs, it carries the same amount of payload – 6500kg as shown for the current MiG-35. My guess is that the definitive Mig-35 should carry more payload – 7000kg.
I was wondering why the Russians did/could not send a modified MiG-29K for the flight evals, would’ve been closer to the real deal perhaps. Still, the MiG-29M/M2 should be close enough flight performance wise. Interesting to note the air launched Klub being offered, wonder if the IN will take up this option. Nice bird, expect extra orders from the IN for fulcrums in case the MRCA deal goes non-russian. 30+ MiG-29Ks + 50 Su-30MKIs should keep ’em happy i guess.
CM
uss noviceAgreed this could be any thing for PAK-FA ,Su-35 ,Mig-35 …….
AFM October 2009 has a special on FUTURE FULCRUMS by
Piotr Butowski , it examines the current status and future prospects for this Russian fighter any info ?
Anyone have anything new and interesting? If so, please do post. Thanks
USS>
uss novice
MiG-35 with wing drop tanks.
There seems to be a large pod attached to a belly hardpoint. What is it?
WTH! I can’t see the pic – I want my fulcrum, what is happening?
USS.
uss noviceWell..I am not so sure this is going to work out.Going by the recent trends in weapons purchases i think Dassault already knows that Rafale is not going to be selected for mMRCA.And the upgrade would/could not have any such stuff so as to have such a high cost.
In anycase I dont know why the IAF is ruling out an Israeli upgrade.I would have thought that would have been the better option even if the French upgrade didnt cost so much..and if you really wanted the French weapons..Mica that could be easily done with the Israeli upgrade I think.
Good to see you post again Ray, long time. Anyway, Shukla’s latest article seems to fly in the face of the bonhomie shown by MMS and Sarkozy in Paris for the Bastille Day parade. Sarkozy looked too damn happy – there must be something going on that sweetens the pot a bit for the French. May very well be that like the UAE chaps, the IAF will get rid of current M2k’s and forego the upgrades only to buy a large amount of Rafales.
But of course, another possibility is that India winds up buying UAE Mirages too.
One way or the other, it seems doubtful that the French will be given a total shaft – No MRCA + No upgrade – won’t be too good for a pretty well established relationship. JMT
USS.
uss noviceThe nose of the brahmos missile looks odd. why does it have this rather phallic shape?
PERVERTS! They’re all over the place these days. 😀
USS.
uss noviceReminds me of the Chinese airforce pics… For westeners it looks a bit funny.
Have to agree (irrespective of what westerners or easterners think), – ridiculously funny! IAF and PAF boys strutting around like that – i’d be embarrassed frankly. A total u turn from their traditional cultures – that is why it looks so odd.
IF this is a PR attempt, I sure hope it is working and they get some youngsters interested, but it looks worse than WWF characters prancing around. Perhaps they should have videos next with the armageddon soundtrack in the background.
JMT.
USS.
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