uss noviceYou’re ignoring the main problem with your hypothetical F-18C+, & the reason why I mentioned the Tornado: both went out of production before they could have been considered for the MMRCA, & not far apart. At the time F-18C production ended, the USA was refusing to supply even F404s for LCA development.
Fair enough, but some of the birds being offered today are not in production either – point is there was the chance that the U.S. could have really shown their willingness to work with india by offering such an exclusive bid thereby also allaying the perpetual fear in INdian minds about US foreign policy. Either that or the F-16XL.
I have a more feasible fantasy: India used the imminent end of Mirage 2000 production to squeeze such good terms out of Dassault & the French government that it was too good an offer to refuse. Of course, it would require prompt & decisive action by Indian bureaucrats, but if we set aside that, consider what could have been got –
– Dassault transfers the entire Mirage 2000 assembly line to India. Preferably, to be operated by a joint venture in which Dassault has a very large stake, as this gives Dassault a strong incentive to support it. Contract requires Dassault to seek, & provide technical assistance to where necessary, local component suppliers to boost local content.
– Co-operation by Dassault, Snecma & maybe Thales on development both of M2K upgrades for India (& which India could offer to other M2K users), & Tejas.
– Joint export marketing by France & India of Indian-built Mirage 2000+ & Tejas.
How can you possibly suggest something so err sensible? Yes what was once ground reality is now firmly in the realms of fantasy. But while we are still chewing on the fantastic, I would have liked the M2k-5 to get an MKI upgrade with AL-31s (they sure were a little low on thrust with that MP-53 engine). Would’ve been a fantastic upgrade considering what a low wingloading the M2k has! Garnish with AESA, TVC, a touch of RAM and perhaps extra internal fuel or even CFTs!
Consider how feasible this was when there is a massive amount of infrastructure already in place for about 140 Mirage 2000s in INdia! And then there is the Koraput facility for the AL-31FP – they should start mfg. indian AL-31s from scratch and raw materials pretty soon! What a fiasco.
Too late now, of course.
Ditto with the F-18C scenario eh?
USS.
uss novicePls can you compare Zhuk-ME with Captor and AN/APG-68(V)9? That will reveal the capability of ME.
There is huge probability of the ‘top end’ will be jammed by an AESA. You did a wrong by mentioning Saudi Arabia as an example! It cannot be an example. They have petro-dollars to buy any aircraft whenever they want, there is no comparion with IAF. Just look for how many days IAF negotiating for MRCA and how many days it took for SA to decide Typhoon deal.If Zhuk-ME can detect a 5 m2 target at a range of 120 km then how far it will be capable to detect a 1.2 m2 target ‘PAF F-16’? 😮
Rafale already mounted with RBE2 AESA and mass production also started.
As well as Japanese Mitsubishi F-2 has a Japanese AESA as well as Vixen-500E and Vixen-1000E are also getting ready fast.A PESA can scan a volume of space much more quickly than a traditional mechanical system due to it’s electronically steered and better jam resistance and higher resolution mapping. ‘If’ Bars-29 had the same range as ME then the Bars is still way better then MSA. EL/M-2052 already tested on aircraft and will be ready for production from next year.
Mig-29 is also delayed little bit. BTW it was a package, Gorshkov with Mig-29K. There is no point of having aircraft without carrier. There ‘was’ no option, but there ‘are’ options now!
Not at all! Mig-29K is a good aircraft but still the Zhuk-ME is it’s weakest part. Read about the RCS of fighter aircrafts I mentioned and its capability.
Dream? lol When I talk about that? Thats why I said first learn about IN’s views. IN no where mentioned about SCS or something but the BoB, AS and IOR. Regularly read strategic views of the Indian diplomats and ex-IN officiers. Begin with visiting http://www.indiannavy.nic.in/ .
There is no option sending CBG close to China. Then how Chinese flankes will face IN’s Ks? :rolleyes:
PLAN aleady over powered IN in many ways, read ex IN chief’s recent comments. It is large enough to open many fronts at the same time for IN. Though PLAN has technologically inferior systems wrt IN’s Russian, European and American system but they are rapidly modernizing enough to project power beyond it’s shore and threaten IN in a great way. IN cannot fight PLAN in SCS but it will be a disaster for IN if they manage to do the same in IOR with many IOR countries hosting PLAN. Start with this one….
Time for India to wake up to China
By: Vice-Admiral Arun Kumar Singh retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief
of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnamhttp://www.deccanchronicle.com/op-ed/time-india-wake-china-953
Firstly, China has a strategic culture, long-term vision and a clearly defined national goal of meeting some milestones:
l by 2010, have military capability superior to its neighbours with whom it has territorial disputes;
l by 2030, have the military capability to fight limited modern wars against medium-sized opponents, and operate a blue water Navy;
l by 2050 achieve global superpower status, economic and military, on par with the US.Some fear that these dates will be nearer then mentioned.
Learning is a never ending process I know that but do you know… “Little knowledge is more dangerous”. Remember that before teaching any other person. Above all talk about a subject what you exactly know not just pretend to be. Zhuk-ME, yes or not but you have to learn a lot about IN!
These ‘simplistic analogies’ were too tough for you! OK. But don’t depend on other’s views. They have much knowladge about IN I know but what about you? I am not thinking about PLAN’s carriers, but learn that a carrier will not come alone! The combined forces will be lethal enough to threat IN’s view of holding Malacca straits to So Hormuz. Thats why IN need something good enough to threaten a much larger and rapidly modernizing PLAN.
Good grief! You are definitely not worth any effort. Despite drawing holes in your silly argument that the MiG-29K radar is weak/obsolete, you want to persist in this line. Trident, Teer, Ankush have all pointed out lengthy holes in your premise (as have I). You can of course choose to continue your meaningless tirade and gain an Abhimanyu like reputation, but I am afraid I have better things to do than indulge your fantasies.
As far as my knowledge about the IN goes, nice try at flame bait, but no go. Anyways, if my posts were terribly flawed (in their logic or factual analysis), I doubt forumers would have let them slide. So far as I can see, only your arguments in the current context seem to be ripped apart, mine have stayed intact and to some extent, have been supported by others.
USS.
uss noviceWhy would you want a less capable plane with a smaller AESA ? Almost all the competitors in the MRCA will stand above an upgraded F-18 C.
How dare you try to poke holes into my paper plane theory? But no, the reasoning behind wanting a “less capable” plane is that the current version seems too damn big for the IAF’s requirement, which originally was none other than the M2k-5. If you notice, even now the shornet stands out as the heaviest a/c by far.
THe F-18C with 414s or even F-404IN20s and a slightly smaller AESA would’ve been a perfectly capable “medium” type a/c. The extra thrust would certainly have addressed some shortcomings. In terms of range/payload, the C offers more than enough with a payload close to 7 tons – the shornet is bigger and more suitable for the USN since it was in some ways replacing the magnificent F-14 as well. But then, the IAF is hardly looking to replace an MKI.
Also there might have been the possibility of totally transferring production lines of the old hornets, mixing it up with an export ver. AESA (or even an EL-2052), israeli/indian inputs – an all up exclusive offer and probly at cheaper prices!
What about the Tornado? It’s another type that’s been out of production since the 1990s, like the F-18C.
Why when the EF-2000 is already on offer? THe F-18C might have been easier (possibly cheaper) to part with for the U.S in terms of technology offered, at the same time offering INdia something closer to its original requirement with production rights. The tornado is again a pretty BIG a/c with a sluggish a2a performance, v.similar to the F-18E/F, perhaps even worse.
USS.
uss novicewith the F/A-18C not being a contender for MMRCA that we have spent way too much time discussing it.
Unfortunate really. They should’ve offered the IAF an exclusive F-18C with 414s and a smaller AESA.
USS.
uss noviceThe ASMP-A enters into service
speed around mach3 and range around 500 km.
Developed by MBDA, the ASMP-A, with a new head (NIR) measures just over 5 meters and a mass of about 850 pounds.
http://www.meretmarine.com/article.cfm?id=111326
It should be interesting to know if it is possible to develop a conventional supersonic cruise weapon out of it or even a long range AtA missile.
Is that 850lb mass a little off? I thought it should be 850kg?
USS.
uss noviceTempest, may I ask the source for this table? Quite interesting,
Thanks!!
Looks similar to the figures in Doug Richardson’s book iirc. its the only place i’ve seen the vanilla fulcrum being quoted @ 3msq.
Strangely enough these figures put the mig-21 as bigger than the fulcrum.
USS>
uss noviceThat ain’t funny!
USS.
uss noviceI find it interesting that I’ve never seen anything but circular nozzles in PAK-FA projections…
As elliptical/rectangular nozzles provide more exhaust/air interface area to dissipate exhaust heat faster, I’d think that would be the direction to go, given IR signature becomes one of the prime target-able weaknesses of a very-low-(X-Band)-RCS fighter. Circular nozzles may be more efficient thrust-wise, but it doesn’t look like the next-gen follow-up to “Al-41” will need help in the thrust department, so attending to other aspects seems a reasonable idea. Obviously there’s other approaches to reduce IR signature (band-shifting materials, etc), but those could all be used with an elliptical/rectangular nozzle for an even lower IR signature.
I think the russians go with circular nozzles to allow for heavy TVC involvement (3D in case of the 35s and Pakfa). IIRC, there was an article around that suggested other shapes increase weight and maintenance issues, at least russian designers claimed so.
They may use other ways to reduce IR sigs. IIRC the latest RD-33MK, which is circular does use some IR reduction tech.
USS.
uss noviceOriginally Posted by Rajan View Post
1. Zhuk-ME is not a good radar for an aircraft entering service in 2013.
It will enter service that late because of various delays. Originally, that was to have happened much earlier, at a time when no other competitor could have offered a substantially better radar.
To reemphasize trident’s point – the MiG-29K is entering IN service as of now (october 2009). What great AESA option does it have? More pertinently what great threat does the IN face as of now that cannot be countered with the MiG-29K?
Build quality in terms of surface finish is pretty much irrelevant to structural integrity. Even factory-fresh Fulcrums would be falling out of the sky in droves if that was true 😉 I hate to say it, but even the new MiG-29Ks are not that great, better than Soviet-era examples, but much of the superficially favourable impression they make is due to higher quality paint.
The only downside I can think of is that the build quality may suggest a greater need for man hours in terms of maintenance, but I am guessing here. Anyway India isn’t exactly hurting on cheap labor either.
USS.
uss noviceBetter build quality does make the plane less likely to fall apart midair though, and that is more then slightly important.
I believe Rafale is offered with PESA, not sure if they give other options though.
How many russian a/c have fallen apart midair compared to non western fighters? The larger point that I was alluding to is that the build qlty does not hamper russian a/c performance to an extent worthy of mention. Spot on on the Rafale.
The JMSDF has had Mitsubishi AESA radars on its F-2s for years.
The AESA for Rafale is in production. Deliveries to Dassault will begin early next year. Service entry is expected 2012.
Yeah I forgot the F2s. Again, lets not split hair, the larger context was- just because a few a/c – v.far from the IOR where the gorky operates will get AESAs by 2015 (and currently have ’em) does not mean that the Zhuk ME available on the MiG-29K is obsolete as of now or for the next few years
USS.
uss noviceWhile I really do not support the MIG-35 for the MRCA the MIG 29K for the IN makes perfect sense. Like many suggested the build quality looks very good (nearing western standards) and if the price quoted is right I can hardly see how we can get a better deal with a mechanically scanned Rafale.
Build qualities are not indicative of performance (unless its a 5 gen where even a small rivet can make a difference. Btw, is/was the Rafale even offered with a Mech?
If we go for a Rafale M with AA the price difference will further increase. The Rafale M however has more bringback capability. better strike capability (probably not at the time of INs evaluation),
In some ways probably yes. It does have greater range/payload parameters
and the latest block Excocet is probably better than the Kh series of Anti Ship Missiles.
That is speculative. THe exocets are harpoon or uran equivalents. the airlaunched AM39 is a little low on range, but i hear there is a new block around. There is nothing like a KH-31P equivalent ARM. Then there is the KH-58 coming in. Only the brits had the ALARM iirc, and it has pretty ltd range. Russian A2G weaponry is easily underestimated but in fact offers an amazing variety – Don’t forget the KH-59 either. And those are just the A2S/Anti ship missiles. The Air launched Klub is another distinct possibility. Lots of options on the fulcrum. THen of course there is the issue of price in weapons as well.
USS.
uss noviceWhy need an upgrade if ME is so good? We are going to have Mig-29 operational onboard Vikram by 2013, so where it will stand by 2015? Only after 2 years of induction? If Vikram was in service by 2008, I had no problem.
You don’t know what you are talking about. Either that or you cannot write well enough to get your point across. It seems that you assume an MSA will be obsolete by 2015. Not so – a top end Mech will still do well compared to many gen 1 AESAs – the Captor for example. IIRC, the tiffies are not slated to get an AESA until much later – nor do Saudi typhoons come with AESAs. You also have your figures on the Zhuk M off – the designers stated a 150km range for a 5msq target about 3 years ago! The Apg 68 or Zhuk N001s on the flankers may not be powerful enough to give an advantage against a Mig-29K with reduced RCS + Zhuk M.
Moreover, expect the IN fulcrums to keep getting continuous upgrades very much like the MKI, the AESA will come when it is needed. As of now or for the next 5-10 years, it is not that critical.
You may not understand but future lies in AESA not Mech. Most of the air forces and all the new IAF fighters are projected to have AESA.
Projected, few do as of now. The earliest AESAs that will start coming in force in non US militaries will be 2013+ (RAfale).
Is it my duty to enlighten what you don’t know?!!!!! Its your duty to keep updating with past, present and future, not me….
Perhaps not, but to be credible it is your duty to back up your claims. Since you pointed out that I knew “nothing” about the Zhuk A, why don’t you tell us what you surely must know.
You did not get what I wrote! BTW EL/M-2052 or aleast Bars-29 PESA. [U]
The BARS pesa was evaluated and its range figures were exactly the same as the Zhuk M. Further the Zhuk is probly lighter, has better scan angles. The EL-2052 is not yet ready for production. Pay good attention to Teer’s post.
They were supposed to deliver the Vikram in 2008 but now they will do that in 2013, so we can expect a AESA with the Migs not ME. Its not 2008 but 2013, many countries would master AESA by then. Thats it.[/U]
The Gorky may not have come on time but the fulcrums are very close to the 2008 date you mention, at current date of delivery I don’t think there are too many options in terms of AESA radars for the 29K – so the ME is the best available. IOWs, your original comment that it is a weakness is flawed.
Again didn’t get!! Its not AESA or not AESA but your thought that IN building carrier forces to fight with PAF F-16s. Thats why I told you to learn why IN actually went for three carrier groups and where they will be deployed and why. They are not spending billions of dollars to fight PAF F-16s. IAF is more than enough.
Why don’t you come out and tell us what threat matrix you expect the IN to deal with circa 2015? If you think the IN will be able to approach the SCS by 2015 you are simply dreaming. It will be lucky to have 2 carriers then and they will be used relatively close by. One closer to the Arabian Sea and the other near the Malaccas perhaps (and that is if one is not in dock getting work done). Sending CBGs close to China is still a long way away if ever possible, so the main air threat will be PAF f-16s and P3 Orions. Perhaps a remote possibility of a tangle with Chinese flankers, but the fulcrums should be capable of dealing with these.
Its ‘me’, not ‘us’. Everyone knows that. PLAN maintains a much larger force level than IN and we need technological edge to engage them. Just go through PLAN’s new projects, commissioned ships, technical improvements and above all how fast they are changing towards a modern blue water navy. Where they were ten years before and where they will be after ten years. :rolleyes:
As of today the PLAN has little ability to threaten the IN. By 2015, despite their expansion, they will still struggle to overpower the IN. There is more to this than sheer numbers. Let us not forget that the PLAN has to always keep in mind the presence of the USN so close to their turf. Btw, all your :rolleyes: don’t add an iota of sense to your posts, learn when to use them and when not to.
The groom’s attitude will never change, he was forced to accept her and she is built with that kind of character. But why should IN have to think about ‘fixing’ her beauty before they get her? They should get a new, all ‘powerful’ babe that run for long years and dominate the sky at least over the next decade, unchallenged by upcoming bigger PLAN ‘groom’. 😀
Read what Ankush/Teer wrote and stop using simplistic analogies. Getting a carrier operational is not as simple as you might think – it will take the PLAN some time on a steep learning curve to gain the experience the IN has operating carriers over decades. By that time, the IN should be in a good enough position to hold its keep – from the Malacca straits to the Hormuz.
USS.
uss noviceLOL Did you really read the post? When I said that I know better? 😮 But I am well aware of that.
Didn’t have to explicitly, your ability to know ahem, the “main weakness” of the MiG-29K is v.suggestive. So is the idea that the IN needs to upgrade to AESA.
We are not buying any new aircraft ‘for now’. You know nothing about Zhuk-A
Good then do enlighten me.
IN singed the deal in 2004 when Zhuk-A was in conceptual stage. It not ready for production yet. So don’t bring it here to compare with ME. I was not talking about Zhuk-A.
So what exact AESA were you talking about?
According to your theory we don’t need a carrier at all, if we need to face PAF F-16s. IN’s future is much more than just facing PAF fighter, read something about IN’s future plans and visions as well as why do they need carriers. Then we will talk…
Brilliant conclusion. So my comment that an AESA is not the IN’s priority as of now is evidently enough to conclude that the IN should not have Carriers. As far as reading about IN plans, I’ve read enough. AS far as “talking” to you, after seeing your ability to comprehend and write, I’d rather not.
About China’s naval aviation you have to learn a lot rather than their current ‘vanilla’ flankers, spceally their future aircraft carriers and ships. IN not buying Mig-29K for now. You have to know about China’s way of modernization.
Yes, do enlighten us since you seem to know so much. And then again, perhaps you should spare us – since you understand so little.
I am following the Gorshkov saga way back from starting.
Congratulations! This kind of knowledge should get you into the naval academy – at the very least.
Do you know about a local Indian story? Once a guy was in with a beautiful girl who also matches him. But his elder brother forced him to marry another girl who was very ugly and quarreling! The guy asked him, “Will you marry her”? His elder brother answered, “No, I am not but you have to.” So the guy had to get married with that ugly girl. But when his friend asked him, how is your wife? He smiled and answered ‘excellent’!!! 😀 I think you understood…
Perhaps the problem is with the groom’s attitude, the simple plain jane seemed to him ugly. But upon unveiling, she turned out to be quite the bomb, hence the excellent comment. Alas, most short sighted ones are like that – judge everything by the cover. Thankfully, the IN knows how to “fix” its raw beauties.
USS.
uss noviceI actually can see sense in the purchase of Mig 29ks and the Navy standardising along that. Russian commitment to the project is good as well.
However the 35 is a totally different story, and I think it has no chance of winning the MRCA.
You may have a point. One thing is for sure – the IAF has shown v.little to no interest in the 35 it seems. But trust the russians to to come up with a decent enough bird and an extremely tempting offer to the MOD.
May be they’ll just get 126 a/c in some other way. 50 odd MiG-29Ks + 50 odd Su 30MKIs, and a bag or two of chips would do it i suppose. But they don’t seem to want to make it easy. Add Amurs to that bag, plus few Talwars thrown in. Let us see – GOI will have to do a LOT to keep the russkis quiet if their offer is cheap.
Then of course there is the interest shown in RD-33s as well. Possibly even for the LCA according to one initial report. Wouldn’t be a bad idea in some ways:
Head off JF-17 development and export.
Get a navalized engine for the LCA and MiG-29K
Possibility of TVC as well.
The IAF and IN are pretty impressed with the MK according to Aroor.
JMT
USS.
uss noviceI am well aware of ME’s capabilities. Tell me…
1. Why we need an AESA upgrade, if ME is so good? :rolleyes: IN had no other Russian option and they were forced to buy Mig-29K.
The ME is excellent for now, it is obvious that in time an AESA will be better. The current Zhuk A offers little improvement over the ME other than in # of targets scanned. The IN is obviously in a position to know better – it could have v.well gone for the Zhuk A, but for reasons better known to it, has stayed with the ME. Don’t pretend that you know better, you don’t.
2. Who said that IN Mig-29K will face only PAF-16s?
In the IOR region where it is more likely to operate, what do you expect it will face? Rafales? Shornets? JSFs? Flankers are a remote possibility but there is little to show that chinese flankers have anything significantly better than the Zhuk ME. With an RCS much lower than the vanilla flanker and a radar similar in performance, the K should be good enough.
The ME radar is the weakest part of the Mig-29K.
I suppose you would know?
From all indications, including a direct statement from a CNS, the MiG-29K is an excellent a/c and the order to buy 29 more only confirms the IN’s faith in an a/c that they have been critically involved in developing.
USS.
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