Could be a short-term Harrier carrier for India, before refitting to an LPH, if the IN or anyone else wants one.
.

Hmm, it could be very attractive if the Vicky takes much longer (still they seem to have navigated past the tricky price issues with the russkies). This time, get the vincible with the harriers please and the LUSH program ought to make ’em good for another few years. Can they give it for free while charging only for the a/c ala russia? 😀

USS.

You know USS- you are one of the few Indians on this board who at least made an attempt to understand what was written (though you missed my point entirely), or perhaps its just age where you try to see what a person means versus making idiotic comments (see the post by abrahavt for a perfect example of brainwashed auto response – the only non sequiturs missing were “fascism” or the hoary Indian favorite “communal”).

At any rate – you deserve a reply.

No – I am not asking for an autocrat.

I am asking for a decisive leader who can motivate people with the right tools as necessary and who truly wishes the wellbeing of the country and is willing to look beyond his own prejudices and biases as need be.

Unfortunately, we have lacked that caliber of leader for quite some while now. The parade of Deve Gowda’s (unabashed corruption & incompetence), the VP Singhs (combination of greed for power allowing him to try sectarian rabble rousing, resulting in problems faced by India even today..) and now even MMS (for all the good clean image, he has been an absolute failure at security in the first term, allowed his personal religious differences to overshadow attempts to work constructively with the opposition) – none of these are worthy of the chair of leadership.

India as a nation deserves better, even if its people are not anywhere near serving the nation what it deserves, and by this I mean, all of us, nowhere do justice to what the nation can & should become.

India has been lucky that it has had visionary leaders who served quietly and did yeoman work, and in many cases were even denigrated during and after their time, but who had that requisite blend of qualities that a leader should have.

Take Sardar Patel for instance – had severe differences of opinion, but worked with MKG & Nehru, allowed his personal claim to the PM post be vetoed by MKG for his favorite Nehru & went on to serve a pivotal role in making todays India, played a decisive role for both Goa & J&K. Did he walk out in a huff or allow his personal tragedies overcome his sense of duty? No – duty came first.

PVN Rao – often castigated for the HMehta case (with some merit) & other issues, but in his time, showed remarkable spine in continuing our strategic missile program, effectively reversed 4 decades of economic policy (against his own party’s opposition), faced down a severe insurgency in the Punjab (and saw it ended- lets not even go into the decisions he took) and did not even succumb to the blackmail of the NPT etc. Remarkable leadership. How many know or care about this? Almost none.

Ok – what about Lal Bahadur Shastri? Read about him – truly inspirational. And what grit. In 1965, this quiet spoken mild mannered man, written off by our subcontinental rivals as a stereotype, showed absolute steel in taking the war to its logical conclusion & having it taken across the IB.

These are the kind of leaders India needs. The kind of people who for better or worse, take a stand when the chips are down & see things through, not the kind we’ve had for many years now bar some brief interludes, who basically decide “hey I am in power, no decision is the best decision”.

Seeing the apathetic performance of the GOI after 26/11, the apathetic manner in which functionary after functionary attempted to rationalize the chain of terror attacks which preceded this event, and their media sycophants attempting to spin it away, would make anyone serious realise about how sadly India has been let down by these clowns.

The bureaucracy and the system are equally to blame. For decades, India’s bureaucracy has been firmly subordinated to making things happen for the political masters, as opposed to doing whats right. There are good people in the system, but they are weighed down under a huge pile of rot. And that rot will not go unless we again get some kind of leader or rather series of competent leaders who effectively dismantle these chains.

Look into these issues, research them – see for how long our pre-eminent internal security “Eye” the IB, has been squandering its abilities doing its political masters bidding. See how long failed economic policies were trotted out and kept going & the public shackled in poverty because the word “socialist” had been officially added to our parliamentary lexicon & constitution.

A country the size of India, with the talent it has, and the ferocity of its indigenous population & martial heritage, can field a variety of solutions to match the terror threat that it faces. Israel, a nation far lesser in resources and many other countries have done far more. In India, we have not even set up an effective law and order mechanism to protect within, let alone intervene externally. The political & bureaucratic class are so used to cutting deals for the most odious of reasons, that problems escalate till the Armed services & expendable paramils are called out.

Then violence becomes endemic to the particular area, and all sorts of interventions from other organizations become possible.

All this is brushed away under the carpet of democracy, rights, this and that. Buzz words to hush away criticism.

These are the sad details of where our country has been let down repeatedly. False patriotism (and labeling others jingoistic or arrogant as some twits have done – not you) will not make the issue disappear.

The fact is India deserves better leadership, it has for a long while & thats where it requires leaders who for better or worse, are decisive, and able to formulate a long term plan. Not give in to emotional blackmail (“I cant act against x people from y country, I was born there”) or be hopelessly naive (sending a dove card after 26/11) or pursue a quixotic agenda (the n-deal) when internal security is bleeding & the chosen appointee is not even barely upto the task. We have had far too many “could be would be’s” who simply havent delivered. If India has to truly unlock its potential, it has to confront its security challenges and overcome them.

Otherwise, learn from history – the strongest walls can be breached, the bravest can be killed, defeated or even converted & turned against a populace apathetic to their fight, the wealth can be scattered and the cycle repeats. Merely beating the drum about being an economic power or how noble we are, etc does diddly squat. Civilization, for better or worse, requires a strong shield backed by effective leadership. India – doesnt have that.

And it deserves better.

See teer, there was an old latin saying, wish I could remember it (sounds really profound too when you quote latin :D), which roughly translated means that “the best when corrupted, become the very worst” One feels india is a case in point. To use a more popular (but less profound example), the last thing anyone wanted was for Anakin to become Darth Vader, but little do they realize that he couldn’t become any less.
I can’t help but feel that in india’s case too, it will get someone absolutely stellar, not just very good, it is in the nature of things. Until then however, we will see some of the worst.

The current situation actually demands something drastic. Good or excellent just won’t do – men of such stature could not stem the rot which had even set in about 500 years ago. Now, we are looking at a total game changer, anything less such as excellent or really good/able person, will not help; either he won’t reach the top or if he does, such a person won’t last long. And if he manages to make some difference, it will be too short and temporary. JMT.

As far as the security situation is concerned, it will get a LOT worse before it gets better. But it will get better.

USS.

Real politicians who actually make decisions that are essential for their nation’s well being often need “gonads”. Gonads of course being an euphemism to describe guts, the will to do whats right, or at times what’s necessary versus just being in the chair to make money & run off when the going gets tough.

What you seem to be actually asking for Teer is no less than an Autocrat/Theocrat (in Plato’s lingo and not the degenerate form we refer to today). In essence, a pinnacle of civilization led from the very top – call it what you will – “kingdom of Christ”, “Ram Rajya” or the rule of the Mahdi. We can only hope, and for those of us still willing, pray.

The closest sampling the world saw of this in the last 200-500 years was probably that of Ch. Shivaji or probably that of Washington and Mohd. Fatih. Subhas Bose also comes to mind but it seems that by this late stage such effort was doomed to tragedy. But still, would have been amazing to have some one of that calibre around.

JMT

USS.

USS, thanks for the info. Do you have anything apart from Aviapedia on this? Anyways let me look into this myself.

Geolocation basically means you are able to …well locate geographically, either via triangulation (multiple aircraft) or other methods, so ranging is part of the equation.

Now the entire point is that such systems were not part of the MiG-35 package but they are stated to be on offer for the Su-35, again a miniaturization, weight & power.

And I do disagree that such advantages are just minor – this is just one of the many examples & they all add up IMO.

But you are welcome to disagree.

FYI: fwiw, there was a bit about the Khbiny by the good dr. kopp iirc.

Btw, any chance of getting empty weight nos on the MKI?

USS.

Edith: I find it quite funny, that people celebrate this as if one of the european contenders had won the MMRCA deal.

Not happening! The MRCA is a U.S. bird, period.

These other deals are sweetners to keep traditional suppliers somewhat satisfied. Expect the M2k upgrade deal + Lafayette class frigates for the French. EJ-200 for the Tejas engines.

Russians will be placated via $$s for the Pakfa, new gen weapons, more Talwars and perhaps the MRMPA (IL-38 derivatives or MTA).

The mrca otoh, is out of reach for both europeans and russia. JMT.

USS.

There are very few in service systems that can actually geolocate ( a fancy term for determining both the bearing & range), eg the AN/APR-47 on the F-4G could do it, which is why the Harms fired by it were such a success in ODS, whereas most other RWRs cant and can give only the rough bearing. Now, the AGM-88E HARM with the GPS fix can finally use the geolocation capability of this new digital RWR on the F/A-18 E/F and at least target fixed radar sites, if not very mobile ones!
The Pastel, I think, just takes the bearing info & feeds it to a WCS which can then auto designate upto 6 Kh-31s.
The point to note is that India rejected this system in place of a combo of its Tarang2/R118 cued HADF pod (+/-60 in the frontal) for long range acquisition & firing.

Even if the pastel can’t do it as well, they did have a podded version sometime back (L080?). They also have the Khbiny system on the Su-34, which is supposed to do the passive detection/ranging bit. Also why I mentioned the SA Avitronics ELS, it has been integrated on the Su-30MKM by the RMAF, certainly the 35 can get it. Not such a big deal.

Look, when it says “jam” it doesnt mean a Chinese guy gets up, and kills the screen with his chopsticks out of frustration. It just means its able to spoof the radar enough to survive – good enough, dont you think? The point it has the capability (theoretically) to do this, versus the SA-10 series, probably not the S-400 which comes with a brand new radar setup.

Not very convincing imho. How long can it stay undetected? At what range? Against what particular S-300 version? Lots of questions. Key word here as you point out is theoretical. I am sure the russkis can provide something better since they built the bloody system.

And the Indian F-16s have ACES which is touted as the “best there is” (Etc etc blah blah) – it might well be superior to the earlier Falcon Edge given the usual pace of developments in the field.

“best there is”? You do know that the 35 can actually take on the raptor don’t you? I can even show you vids where they say it can be done thanks to its latest sensor suite. 😀

What is so special about the Klub and why do we need it anyways? Look at the cost versus the average tactical target! I am more interested in JDAMs, Paveways and SDBs than the Scalps, Apaches and similar high priced but very limited number assets.

The russkies have JDAM equivalents. India is producing its own paveway kit I thought. (btw, can the IAF integrate indigenous weapons to the american platforms? Astra? Sudarshan? Haven’t seen any indication to the effect). I like the Klub and the like because I think of the MRCA as a bulwark against china and not pakistan. There is no way they are going to get close enough to JDAM range in an mrca VS a bloody S-300/HQ9 site – perhaps with bucket load of growlers – but the best chance against multilayered S-300 types is longer ranged missile unless you are VLO. For 4.5 gen types these missiles would mean not entering dangerous zones and avoiding loss. JMT

Logic works, not emotion, not abuse.

No abuse mate, just credibility. No one else claims such achievements from similar sized arrays – 50% understandable. 100% – questionable. But then I am not saying its impossible either.

Lets focus on the F-16 data here.

What data? The only solid thing to go by is size of the array and that is considerably restricted by the size of the teen’s nose.

Second – EVEN if its a ManuPubby report, remember the Broken clock effect (it can be right twice a day)- and second, this report actually references a flight with an actual named test pilot.

So what? Remember Vishnu Som under similar circumstances in the MiG-35? He definitely found the SAR imagery generated by the zhuk well ahead of the blk 50. And that was just the first proto.

[i]e:
UAE’s F-16s will be envy of USAF pilots
By David A Fulfhum/Washington, John D Morrocco/London and, Edward H Phillips/Dallas.
The Block 60 F-16 will have several features sure to be envied by U.S. pilots, said a Lockheed Martin official:
Anactiye electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that produces a classified 70-80-mile range against a l-meter-square target.

I’ve read this one before. Thats about 120km for 1msq. I’d say about 140 odd km for a 3sqm, the Zhuk-A does that with a 680 trm set.

Thats about 10-20 mi. better than the current top-of-the-line F-15C interceptor and three times better than the current USAF F-16.

Again, miles. Where does it say nautical miles? Btw, this link puts it @ 130km for fighter sized targets, and 275km for bomber
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Articles/PG/PGSA.htm

However, even going by nautical miles. Lets see what we get – 3 X current USAF f-16 (i.e. blk 50, apg-68v5) = 120-140km for 1sqm target? The V9 gives about 100km based on your last post for a 5 sqm target. It is reported to have 30% more on the V5 giving the latter about 70km for 5msq target, about 40km for a 1msq target. The Apg-80 then would have a range 3 times that or about 120-140km at the very most for 1sqm target. The Zhuk A does 3sqm @ 130-140km as of 2005. Once the full set goes active with another 400 TRMs, the range is sure to cross the Apg-80.

Point is, sooner or later this difference is not going to exist since the F-16blk 60 is not being upgraded for the USAF. The fulcrum, otoh, can keep on getting upgrades using TRMS from wherever. Its prod model is set to have 1064-1100 TRM – giving well over 200km for 3-5 sqm according to mfrs.

Secondly, all this 50% generally is a load of … if you apply logic. Power scaling depends on power available! Does the Block60 have the same engines, the same alternators as the V9 equipped aircraft? Think!
So tomorrow, if I replace a MSA in a fighter able to generate only 10 KVA with an AESA which requires much more power, wheres’s that 50% going to come from?

Fair enough. What about cooling? More power, more heat.

Point is the APG-80 & to bear it, the Block 60, was developed expressly for the UAE, and the advantages came with a heavy cost in terms of real $$ (paid for by the UAE) and timeline. The actual full specced Block60’s just got “there” only a few years back.

Thats going to be the case almost in case of any new fighter – teething issues will be there. And thats just it with the fulcrum/gripen, lets be fair. Also, no MRCA will come completely off the shelf, a degree of customization is quite likely – thats a common cost – why single out the fulcrum?

My point is that the Viper/Hornet/Typhoon/Rafale are known – flaws, pros, cons, likes, dislikes – tell me are you even sure of the MTOW or what not of the new MiG-35? Heck, y’all are still debating it.

Fact is MTOW for the 35 just keeps increasing – a good sign imho. Btw, who knows the exact weights on an MKI, Tiffy or Rafale or hell even an F-15?

Wait till the final version appears and you’ll see where the fat piled on. 😛

There can be only ONE FAT plane – F-16 :diablo: The 35 is phat not fat.

Gawsh, Cain all they did was “catch up” to the rest of the world, which has been deploying all these thingmajigs for quite some time now.

Doesn’t matter, this was an area they were considered “behind” in. They caught up and perhaps even ventured ahead in some ways. The Zhuk A was sure a surprise, the 360 degree LWS/MAWS and downward OLS also seem competitive! Just shows that for the next iteration the fulcrum will not be at any disadvantage. In some technical parameters, even ahead of the other exhorbitant a/c. (IRST/TVC for ex.).

And their co-opting Elettronica was a clear indication they could’nt match what is available commercially (and which is why India is going for its own EW fit on the MiG-29UPG, multi-threat handling etc).

So what? Hardly an issue, all the more reason to go with it considering its low costs and the expertise india seems to have achieved in EW systems.

Where they messed up was in not getting Israel involved with the 2052, I’d say it was ego which came in the way, or pure commercial interest in getting Phaza to deliver and recieve the order.

Perhaps. And then again, may be they dropped the israeli idea cause they thought they could do better!

USS.

Funny, on how many types are adopting CFT’s. Regardless, how can you claim they’re not a benefit. When you don’t have to carry them……….

Further, such types like the F-15E Strike Eagle. Consider them such a advantage. That its extremely rare for them not to carry them……:diablo:

BTW Weight is only a issue if the competitor is superior at a given payload and range.

Note: The Flanker is extremely “large” and “heavy”. Yet, is its somehow inferior to its much lighter competition…………:rolleyes:

Sorry, that argument hardly holds water……….

Don’t twist my words. I don’t think CFTs are a bad idea, they naturally offer certain benefits, which are more pertinent to a strike task than an A2A scenario. in terms of flight performance, the tiffy, F-15, rafale – all would do much better with CFTs than the F-16 imho.

The problem is with the additional weight the viper has gained over the past few decades. This additional weight (over 2 tons) has not been compensated
with either a higher internal fuel capacity (such as the GripenNG, Super Hornet, MiG-29M/35, MKI) or any increase in wing area resulting in hits in both these crucial areas. They have made a bomb truck out of the viper and it shows. They try to compensate with CFTs but that ruins the one advantage it gained during this period – TWR.

As far as drag is concerned, CFTs probly produce much more drag than carrying more fuel internally, which is precisely what the fulcrum, NG, MKI and hornet do. And yes, this too gives all the advantages of CFTs including leaving pylons free for weapons.

IOWs, to match the newer versions of the fulcrum or NG in range, the f-16 needs EFTs or CFTs, which results in drag, poor twr, wingloading, payload capacity.

The XL version imho was sooo much better. Was a real looker too.

USS.