And to be honest when it comes to fighters, American and Western European types do have superiority. See how much custom built the MKI was in order to make it competitive in the global front.

That initial statement is very revealing. It betrays that you, like scoot, seem to have a preconceived notion of “west is best”. Statements such as these without any supporting evidence or argument qualify for the word “bias” – an unreasonable (and therefore undemocratic) judgment against a given issue/phenomenon/people. AKA prejudice. Or you are simply unaware of certain realities.

Thing is the above statement flies in the face of facts such as IAF Baaz routinely besting western fighters such as the Mirage 2000 or
when a single Baaz had two PAF F-16s hightailing it. or
when the russki flankers had F-15s in a rather embarrassing spot in Alaska. or
when the luftwaffe Mig-29s resoundingly made the F-16s eat humble pie. or
when IAF bisons and vanilla flankers (not MKI) made life miserable for f-15s in Cope India. or
when IAF bisons gave RSAF blk 50+ F-16s a rough time in Simbex. or
when IAF MKIs went toe-to-toe with tiffies in indradhanush. or
when IAF bisons caused difficulties for E3s in indradhanush or
when IAF vanilla flankers (30Ks not MKIs) caused headaches for the Adla’s M2k-5.

Btw most of the above incidents took place with upgraded golden oldies such as the mig-21 or vanilla flankers. So much for “customizing the MKI to acheive competitivenss in a global market”. It could very well be said that the flanker is such an amazing design that till date this 25 year old design with appropriate finagling can give later builds such as the eurocanards a tough time. Lets also not forget that it was the russkies that started using the HMS/heat seeker combos in earnest, something that has now become std. for most western birds to emulate. Legacy jets like the teens hardly stand a chance (perhaps with the exception of the F-15S/K types). When used by a decently trained and equipped side such as the IAF or VVS, russki birds can best fabled western a/c and have routinely done so. Only a 5th gen F-22 presents a clear edge.

This is not to diss western birds or tech, obviously they bring some advantages to the table (such as excellent uptimes, SA, crew comforts etc). But to emphatically state that one type is better than the other shows either ignorance or prejudice on part of the speaker/poster.

Su 35 is a decent fighter though and i was surprised to see that it finished fourth in the Korean competiton ( according to links by arhtur)

Wow, so a dismal performance by the su-35 in a so called “competition” held by an american ally is the indicator of the flanker’s worth eh? How convenient that you should entirely omit the fact that arthuro listed those links to highlight the bias inherent to that bid. I wonder how well an F-18e/f or F-15k or Typhoon would do in a competition held by Venezuela or Cuba.

I hope to make this my last post towards this discussion, where any form of reasoning seems futile.

USS.

Pot calling the Kettle black anyone ?

He at least admits his bias, while your anti-American bias is 😮

Riiight. So Scoot does have a side kick I see. Anti american bias because I pointed out obvious flaws in the fat viper or the shornet? Very democratic and voltairish I s’pose. :rolleyes: Noticed similar accusations towards Swerve as well cause he pointed out some glaring contradictions in your arguments. tsk tsk.

As far as USA-India is concerned, my stand on it has been clear for the longest time. The two countries are destined to have a decent natural alliance in the near future, the circle after all is complete only when the newest and the oldest join hands.

Does not mean I stay pig headed and blind to crap on either side.

USS.

upgrading MiG-29s to the standard that the IAF is doing, is a great idea, especially considering that 55 odd MiG-29s are being upgraded at a unit cost that is just about $15 million per unit. the reputation of the MiG-29 as an air superiority fighter was pretty good in the IAF, and it regularly trumped Mirages in DACT in the IAF. and till the MKIs entered service, they were the premier Air Superiority fighters in the IAF.

the fundamental MiG-29 is a great fighter in WVR, and its basic flaws were poor man-machine interface, poor range, poor avionics and the rather old RD-33 engines. all these are being taken care of with the new upgrade, and add to that multi-role ability..the BVR capability, with R-77 and Zhuk-ME, gives it about the same level of sophistication as Block 50 F-16s, at a price that is about 1/3rd that of even second hand Qatari Mirage-2000s..plus, they will have an increase in their Total Technical Life..

frankly, while the Indian Ministry of Defence goofed up on the price they offered, the Qataris were looking at an unrealistically high price for their Mirages, and the result is that they’re still unsold. second hand F-16s have been sold at much lower prices, although I do agree that they’ve been at max MLU’ed F-16s, nothing better.

Just to nitpick, the current IAF fulcrums do have decent BVR capability (r77 and r-27 iirc). 1999 kargil saw the use of these Baaz vs the PAF f-16s in which the latter were seriously humbled. The Mig-29 upg is indeed an excellent idea and unlike the proposed M2k upgrade is moving at a much faster pace.

Which brings me to my next point – perhaps GOI/IAF is going to combine the M2k upgrade along with a purchase of a few extra airframes (hence the delay). The UAE twist, if true, comes at an opportune moment. A nice $ 3-4 billion for 75 odd mirage 2000-5/9s would go a long way to plug gaps in IAF sqd strength as well keeping the frenchies happy in case the MRCA is already in the american basket (which seems the writing on the wall). Somehow one feels the IAF is going to need the extra a/c pretty quick 🙁

Many objectives in a single strike – one can only hope!

USS.

I feel very sad that F16IN seems to be the front runner as some posters seem to indicate.
However, given Indian politicos myopic view, lethargy and endless rampant corruption in Indian defense establishment, I would not be surprised if India picks the worst overall turkey of the lot:

Yup, you seem to have hit the nail right on the head.

1. F-16 is still an old frame despite new avionics – you can only do so much with it, and future upgrades would be limited compared to newer gen fighters. And argument that this could lead to F-35 purchase, or ease its induction in future is so futile. Seriously, if India decides to buy F-35 in future, I do not think that having bought F-16 first would be a prerequisite. Weapon integration can be done at that time as required.

Very well said. The 16 is by far the worst of the lot, even beats its horrid cousin the sewer hornet. No commonality whatever with existing inventory. At least the shornet could have engines similar to the Tejas.

2. If India is going to invest so much money, why not get latest production technologies for EF2000, Rafale, or SH instead of F16? However, I have to say I am not sure how much this will help India’s defense establishment. India does not seem to be like China, which takes every opportunity to learn and transfer into resident expertise. India has lost a lot of good opportunities – its really sick (example – Establishing HDW submarine production in India decades ago – most of it was lost).

Rafale by far seems the best contender for a variety of reasons including the fact that french support for India’s nuclear tests in 98 and in Kargil should be reciprocated. The original M2k-5 deal was in a way designed to show this goodwill iirc.

3. Some poster claimed that MRCA will be in Indian service only till 2040 – NO, it could be in service way beyond 2040. Go look at current MiG 21, 23, 27 life times and upgrades to keep them going, that should give you an idea how Indian MoD operates.

Can you imagine a single engined bird like the f-16 in circa 2060 😮 The “fat” viper is already in its last evolutionary iteration. What a terrible thought. India would have the wonderful distinction of being its sole operator (apart from Bangladesh perhaps, which would’ve gotten them from pakistan)

4. Lastly – Don’t buy anything American for defense unless there are no other options – risky. People in the US do not trust Uncle Sam totally, I wonder why India is. Geopolitics change all the time, and if India happens to be on the other side of American wishes, bye bye for your defense support. Or India can kiss independent foreign policy a good bye. If India lets itself pressurized by the US to make its decisions, then shame on it; it does not deserve to choose its own destiny.

Hmm, food for thought indeed.

I really hope India does not choose F16 or F-18.
Then again, I am not impressed by the brains and motives behind the people who make these decisions.

To think some of the posters on this forum actually push for the likes of the F-16IN and talk of minimizing fighter types all in the same breath – serious cases of brain damage it seems. 😮

USS.

the issue that is most galling is that as per the original contract, any follow-on purchases of the 29 MiG-29Ks on option, was to have been at the same price as the original MiG-29Ks, as long as the order was placed before 2012 or some date ( can’t remember exactly)..that date has surely not passed, whereas the price escalation violates the terms of the original contract.

Unless of course, the follow on option has a lot more in it than the originals, you never know. There are other BS sources out there (similar to the author of this piece) stating AESA radars, TVC, newer engines and weapons etc for the second batch. One way to look at it is – if one BS source is correct, perhaps the other is too? 😀

Said price escalation might not look too bad in such a case. It means about $ 50 mil for an AESA equipped, 3D TVC a/c flyaway.

Of course this is all speculation, AI 09 might give us a better idea. Perhaps the IAF MRCA contract will go to the Rafale (or God forbid, the sewer hornet :eek:) ) and the russkies will be given compensation via multiple orders of the MiG-35 in the form of the Mig-29 for IN. Everybody is happy then.

USS.

Yet, all considered, my choice would be the Rafale, without a doubt.

Ditto. A few 100 rafales with some french champagne please! Either that or Russki Vodka and MiG 35s will do if the price hike mentioned by V. Raghuvanshi is not for real.

USS.

OK here goes nothing (my two cents anyways)

Swiss: Tiffy or Gripen
India: Shornet or Rafale, Dark horse: MiG -35
Brazil: Flankers or Rafale
Libya: Flankers of MiG-35s
Netherlands: F-35

USS.

Way too much for something equipped with Zhuk-ME.
Am I the only one who starts to think that what Rosoboronexport has been doin with the MIG aircraft was a real sabotage? 😉 First the Algerian fiasco, now this… :confused:

hmm, you may have a point. But I prefer to think that the the mig-29k that finally flies under the IN flag, will be a LOT different than the ones we have been seeing around. Don’t be surprised if you get a Zhuk A (aesa) along with TVC on these birds with a few other things including newer weapons (Klub anyone?) thrown in. Could be the reason why its been delayed for over a year now. IIRC it was originally due to the IN almost a year ago – the first K and KUB were flying in primer in Jan 07 i believe. So whats taking that long?

Still the final price seems ridiculously high. Further, after some major bargaining (as the Indians are wont to do), you may have a price of about $ 55 milllion (including all the support, weapons, gizmos etc)

More importantly, let us not forget that the author of this piece (V. Raghuvanshi) is notorious for BS pieces. I say lets wait until Aeroindia 09 and see what we see.

But if this piece is actually true, then the 35 should be dropped like a brick for the MRCA, its simply too much for a legacy jet. Perhaps the IN could also bug out of further fulcrum orders – Go Rafale! a few 100 of those french beauties will be worth it 😀

USS.