uss noviceYou’ve not been paying attention, have you? What did I just say about comparability? Of that US$4.6 bn Australia is paying for its F-18Fs, less than half is for the aircraft, & IIRC even that includes spares. The rest is the cost of weapons (a lot of weapons), training, support and operating costs for ten years.
Nice of you to take notice that its for ten years and not a lifetime. 🙂 Irrespective, the cost of the IN fulcrum comes to about $ 45million (INCLUDING) all of the above. Furthermore, even if the cost of the a/c without (weapons, support etc) is half of USD 4.6 bln, i.e. around USD $ 2.3 billion, it is still WELL over $ 100 million per a/c. also, it is not necessary that the package as a whole should cost twice as much as the a/c. For eg. the ROKAF f15 deal cost around 4.2 billion USD for 40 a/c; out of which about USD $ 3.6 billion went to Boeing for the a/c alone. About 300 million went for the weapons+training, another 300 for the engines (GE).
The Austrian price (since cut, with capability cuts & fewer aircraft) included weapons, spares, training, a period of support & notional interest payments on the purchase price, although no money was to be borrowed specifically for the purchase. They calculated the average cost of government borrowing, & added that to the price (over about 10 years, IIRC), on the grounds that otherwise the money could have paid off some government debt.
Fine, the price is still astronomical as compared to the Russian birds. 16 Ef2000 = 3 billion USD. 16 MiG 29k = 750 million USD. Package includes spares, support, training, cupholders, cd changers, dvd roms, nintendo etc.
I suggest you recalculate the Su-30MKI price on that basis. You’ll find it goes up a hell of a lot.
Swerve, lets be honest – no matter how much I crunch numbers and recalculate, the MKI cost is not going to come anywhere close to the almost USD 200 million that the Aussies are paying per Shornet package. And I doubt they are even getting TOT (as demanded by INdia for the MRCA). All I have so far is about USD 8.5-9 billion for the entire contract of the MKI. And this may even include support etc. Hell even if you add another 50% to it, the cost per a/c still stays around the USD 70 million per a/c mark.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceDoes in really matter……..Clearly, India will know the total cost from each bidder for the 126 MMRCA Contract. Which, means she will base her decision on total cost vs capabilities. In the end in come down to value and only India can put a price on that…….;)
Not that simple mate, there are important factors such as kickbacks and unseen costs 😉 ; its not all just a merit based cost vs capabilities deal irrespective of what they claim on paper.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThe standard problem: numbers are being hurled around without it being made clear what they refer to.
The oft-quoted prices for fighters are rarely comparable. Sometimes, the price is just the production cost of one aircraft. No weapons, no support equipment, no spares, no training (essential for pilots & ground crew): nada. Sometimes, it includes all that lot, support for a decade after purchase, & a levy to be paid to whatever government financed development. The latter price will be twice the former, or even more, for the same aircraft. If a price is given without it being clear what it includes, it’s pretty meaningless.
True, i’d agree here. However, the difference between western european a/c and american a/c of a similar type are marginal at best. WHether you compare the Greek/Austrian Ef2000 deal with the RAAF Shornet deal or you compare it with the ROKAF deal for the F15k. It all comes to USD 100+ no matter how you slice it. Of course, this includes support, training etc.
OTOH, Russian birds are FAR cheaper – the Mig 29k of the IN for eg. costs around USD 45 million (INCLUDING all the factors that you have mentioned above such as weapons+tech support etc). The Su 30MKI deal is estimated around USD 9 billion for 238 birds.
Regards,
USS.
uss novice😮
how do you know that the cost of the MiG-35 is going to be so much lesser than its competitors except the Gripen ? Do you have any figures provided by any MiG official during Aero India ’07 or any other report to go by or are you just guessing ?
Ankush, its a guesstimate based on figures on the MiG 29k and the Su 30MKI – very similar to the presumption that the MiG 35 has heavy lifecycle costs vis a vis western birds . Sure the IN Fulcrums are about $ 45 mill per unit, but that includes weapons+support+training. Unit price is around $ 30 mill per bird. Based on that the 35 as a package (weapons+support+training)wouldn’t be anymore than $ 50 million with a Zhuk A + TVC since airframewise the similarity is considerable. As far as cost escalations go, please consider these for other countries as well (so it is a constant as it will be applied to all other contenders). Also keep in mind that the price for the MiG 29k is based only on an initial order of 16 birds, when the number jumps to 126, the price should come down – a simple matter of economies of scale.
May I remind you that the Su-30MKI prices were vastly exaggerated as being only around 35 million $ per unit and are instead closer to 50 million $ per unit (not taking into account the price hike Sukhoi is asking for). even more so for the HAL-built MKIs. how is the MiG-35 going to beat that ? even the MiG-29Ks came at around 45 million $ per unit and that was before the price hike issue..
I dunno where you got the $ 50 million figure for the MKI, as per recent reports the cost comes close to $ 8.5 billion + .5 billion (cost escalation) = $ 9 bln for the entire 238 birds and this I believe includes UPGRADE costs (Nick could you please confirm this?)
http://www.indianexpress.com/iep/sunday/story/31385.html
Simply put, the Russians want India to cough up Rs 220-300 crore, or nearly half-a-billion dollars, more if they want the Su-30 MKIs delivered in time and with the same specification. Right now the total contract is worth over $8.5 billion. India is in a fix as given the importance of the Su-30 MKI, its force levels will decline vis-a-vis its neighbours if it does not agree to the new terms.
I dunno what the idiots are cribbing about:rolleyes: that averages @ ~ 40 million USD per MKI (including the recent cost escalation taken at its maximum as i’m sure they’ll bargain it down a bit) – for what it offers, this is FANTASTIC. Perhaps this does not include the cost of the weapons+setup+TOT? May be Nick can help out. But even if you add another $ 4 billion for the entire package, its still one helluva deal (each MKI would cost only about $ 55 million including EVERYTHING). Hell, even the MKI is probly half the cost of some of the western MRCA candidates (Gripen excepted). It is obvious that the MiG 35 would be cheaper than the MKI.
and the Super Hornet is at current list prices, around 60 million $ a pop.
Tell that to the RAAF, which recently signed up for 24 units @ an amazing $ 4.6 bln USD!
http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/NelsonMintpl.cfm?CurrentId=6437
SImilarly, the RAF is to shell out about $ 24 billion for its 236 odd EF2000s. Hell the Austrians were supposed to be paying close to USD 3 billion for 18 odd Ef2000s. Some even said the cost over the lifetime would be closer to USD 6billion 😮
The Rafale could be around 70-75 million $, but nothing like the 2 MiG-35s per SH/Rafale.
You are quoting a rafale’s price without the heavy price that goes with French weapons+training+support. I’d say close to $ 90-100 million per unit for the entire package. Perhaps a little lower than the EF 2000, I remember a $90 million per unit price being quoted for the S.Korean? competition.
it would be cheaper to absorb into the IAF for sure, considering that facilities already exist,
Yup, so add that to the cost of the other MRCAs as well. And don’t forget to add up the cost of western TOT. Overall, i’d still say that the MiG 35 is half the price of all other western MRCA types (Gripen excepted and perhaps an F16blk52).
but then it has to beat the others in technical criteria as well. the article posted by Joey clearly mentioned that the best possible jet for the IAF will be picked- if the IAF wants the MiG-35, then I have no issues, but cost alone should not be the criteria.
Yes I too agree that the best possible a/c should be picked by the IAF, however, the price is probly amongst THE most important criteria. Anyways, this whole conversation was based on the issue of lifecycle costs so we are not really discussing technical parameters as of now. And even techwise, the MiG 35 is no slouch. Arguably marginally lesser than the Ef2000 and others, but good enough to bash any PAF/PLAAF bird IMHO.
But then I do confess to being a fulcrum fan. 😀 Not to the extent that i’d want the IAF to get raw deal though 😎
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceI don’t see most F16s (blk 60 excepted) being compatible with either the Meteor or the Amraam D. Don’t they require a very powerful radar to lock on and guide such missiles (with ranges of about 150km++)? It’d be quite pointless to lug around a very LRAAM if you can’t use its extra range. The Typhoon and perhaps the Rafale (with AMSAR?) would probly be the only a/c with the ability to use such missiles to their potential.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceVikas, I was referring to the article that Joey posted where it was claimed that the Lifecycle costs aspect will no longer be considered due to its complicated structure..
I seriously doubt the lifecycle costs of the MiG 35 are going to be markedly higher (or high enough to offset the upfront procurment costs of the other contenders, which are very likely to be 2-3X higher than the fulcrum). With an airframe life of 6000 hours and engine life ~ 4000 hours, this is a pretty competitive beast. JMT.
@ current prices, they’d probly be able to buy two MiG 35s for every EF2000/Rafale/SuperHornet and still come out on top @ the end of 40-50 years. Only the Gripen could compete with the fulcrum in terms of costs. But then, it’d hardly meet the other criteria such as range, payload etc.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceSo what happened to the collab with Israel for a whole bunch of the M2k upgrade? French or Israeli weapons package? this article seems no better than the stuff Raghuvanshi was spouting.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThanks Paul, Tmor, and Crobato, your information helped.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThanks Ray, you beat me to it – couldn’t find it on BR (and then I got derailed on another informative archived thread 😮 ). Thats where I got the info that PESAs tend to have lower sidelobs vis a vis Mechs.
Paul,
thanks for the bit about Rafale’s antenna (had no idea). My point however, was that the Typhoon Syndicate has a tendency to hype their products. Hell, not only do they claim decisive range advantages over Pesas such as RBE2 (with good reason perhaps), but they claim extremely competitive scan rates too – good enough to equate with Pesas such as RBE2/Bars.
Its supposed to have an almost Bars (Massive PEsa) class detection range AND also has impressive scan rates thereby enabling it to “track” 20+ and engage 6-8 targets – quite equal to the Bars. I mean – they have the cake plus the icing and an additional cherry.
Sounds incredible – these boys are doing with a slotted array that which a full blown PESA finds difficult – have huge range AND excellent scan/track rates.
BTW, about the captor having LPI< this site mentions LPI to be introduced via an AESA (Amsar i think) and not on the ECR90
http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk/Eurofighter/sensors.html
Regards,
USS.
uss novicePIRATE is massively superior to OLS-30. However, did the Typhoons actually have PIRATE fitted?
Regarding BVR the CAPTOR has various LPI features… Also RCS of belly mounted AIM-120 is going to be less than R-77 / R-27 on the Su-30MKI.
Paul,
I realize that the PIRATE is an excellent example of sensor fusion, allowing for excellent SA. But again they have quoted some outlandish figures for the PIRATE IRST (range upto 145km on AB targets :eek:) Even the Rafale claims a range of around 80km for the OSF. The OLS30 (supposedly has a similar peformance @ around 90km). The Lantirn on the Shornet claims 40nm+, again in the same OLS30/OSF category. If the EF2000 does actually back up its extraordinary claims, it’ll be by far an exceptional a/c and leagues ahead of the MKI/Rafales and S.Hornet. But thats a bit of a trick isn’t it? I mean here they have a slotted array, which outperforms everything from the RBE2, a massive Bars NO11 to perhaps even the APG series 79/80/81? Then they have a very legacy looking a/c (nevermind the external stores it carries) which is supposed to have extraordinarily LO features (2nd only to the F22), then they have an IRST/FLIR package that supercedes all its competitors by 1.5X :rolleyes: DANG, DANG, DANG!! :Shakes head:
More importantly, do we know for sure that the Bars NO11M mk3 doesn’t have LPI features? Afterall shouldn’t PESA achieve LPI a lot easier than a slotted array considering the sidelobes are supposedly lower with a PESA?
JMT.
REgards,
USS.
uss noviceThe difference is that the RCS of Su-30MKI is 7-8 times larger than th eone of EF.. BVR is where Typhoon should still enjoy a great advantage..
The RCS difference might be relative to a baseline SU 27. I seriously doubt the Typhoon has 1/7th RCS of the Su 30MKI esp. considering it’d have to carry 2000 liter drop tanks externally, while the MKI doesn’t require EFTs. I’d guess the difference in RCS would be marginal at best, nothing that would not be negated by the massive power of the Bar NO11M.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceIf you are talking about WVR, you see the problems of having a good kill ratio.In a recent test a single F-22 went head to head with three F-16C’s. The F-16’s simulated having a HMDS with a “high off boresight” (HOB) missile. The F-22 killed two F-16’s and the last F-16 fired a missile simultaneously as the F-22 did. A mutual kill. Great kill ratios come if you are able to use BVR.In one of the first test of the F-22’s combat ability, four F-16C went against one F-22. The F-16’s died and never saw the F-22. Days later, five F-15C’s went against one F-22. All five died and they never saw the F-22, either. The F-22 stood off at a distance and killed the opponents.I came across the following URL on stealth;
http://www.f22totalairwar.de/F-22_Total_Air_War_Stealth_Radar_Cross_Section_RCS.htm
Thats great for the F22, but the Typhoon is nowhere close to the Raptor and would probly have fared just like the F16s in BVR against it.
In fact, it would be the height of irresponsibility to not keep this technical information edge. So, knowing the capabilities of the next MiG’s or Su-X could be determined. Then the west set their sights on being better.
Lets not forget that it would be the height of irresponsibility on part of the Russians to allow the U.S to get any sort of technological edge that couldn’t be countered. I seriously doubt the “west”, least of all the europeans got any secrets/edge outa/over the Russians.
This where the European state of the art avionics comes into play, its IRST ‘should’ have greater range than the Indian system.
Right and Israeli/Indian (french, european too ain’t they) avionics on the MKI should automatically be behind “state of the art” european ones.
One other problem the MKI’s have is the lack of EW equipment! -URL:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=8660
No kidding, so they carry the EL 8222, Tarang etc just for fun is it? Egads thats a piece of news! Adrian, man you should not believe Indian media that easily, they’ll mislead you so you won’t know your head from your feet.
Yeah, I noticed that. The exercise the Indian AF Su-30’s exercised with the Israeli F-15C’s. It is almost like a non-event! I guess the Israelis did a lot better than the USAF, no rediculous ROEs. Israel is real good in WVR aerial combat.
It couldn’t have possibly been that the Israelis and indians prefer to do things a little secretively could it? I mean not a thing on India/ISrael exercises in 2006. OTOH, it has to of course be those loud mouthed Indians who love to pat each others’ butt. :rolleyes:
On websites which favor Russian aircraft, no sign of gloating (as what happen after Cope India), and you know the results of any of these exercises are known by air intelligence.
BTW, the gloating in the indian newsmedia was often a response to the cribbing in US media.
Regards,
USS
uss noviceVery true. But Typhoon also has an excellent set of avionics, and probably does enjoy a great advantage over MKI in terms of its smaller RCS (probably closest to F-22 of operationally deployed fighters). Having said this, years ago people talked a great deal about typhoon’s ability to win over SU-35 in BAE run simulations (i think ratio was 9:1 or something like that). Now both sides have a better chance of testing each other’s capabilities.
Those ridiculous values for the Ef2000’s RCS come from 1998 (where they put their fut in the mouth by making tall claims such as 1/3rd of Rafale, 1/7th of Su 27, “next after the F22” 😮 ) If you notice, they are quite bizarre. If the Ef2000 as per this claim is 1/3rd of the Rafale (which is supposedly 1/10th of the Mirage 2000 and therefore has an RCS of 0.3sqm), then its RCS comes in at 0.1msq, however, they point out that the flanker is 7X greater than this – so the flanker is a mere 0.7msq 😮 Unbelievable – even the Russkies don’t claim that after plasma stealth type treatment. The best they claim for the flanker is about 3sqm after extensive RAM treatment.
As recently as 2006, Mr. David Hamilton, the Marketing Director of the EF2000 program made a statement that the EF2000 has an RCS that is 1/10th of the F15, which would put it at around 1sqm in a clean config. Other claims said the design goal was to have an RCS 1/4th of the Tornado (8sqm), thus firmly putting the EF2000 in the 1msq-2msq bracket. This is much more believable.
I’d say the JSF has the lowest RCS after the F22 period, followed by the Rafale with the Ef2000 coming in a poor 4th.
http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/05/01/464965.html
Mr. Hamilton:
STEALTH is a complex subject and is not like the mvthical ring of invisibility in the Lord of the Rings. STEALTH is a combination of measures taken to reduce radar, visual, IR and noise signatures. There are therefore different levels of STEALTH. Eurofighter has stealth features to reduce its signature (it is 10% of the F-15 radar signature for example) but it is NOT in the same league as JSF which is classified as LO (Low Observable). F-22 and the B-2 are VLO (Very Low Observable) but cost $ hundreds of millions.However, when it comes to radar-stealth, yes, JSF is in a later generation, if you would use such terms. But as to visual stealth, IR stealth, acoustic stealth and network-centric capability, we are in the same generation.
Because we know we are not LO and therefore will be detected earlier than JSF we carry the most advanced Defensive Aid Subsystem (DASS)which includes active and passive countermeasures to jam enemy detection systems. Through the use of the data link we can also go “passive” and get targetting information from a third party (AWACS for example). This is part of our Network Centric capability which all combat air systems must have to operate in the 21st Century. Eurofighter was designed from the outset to be network centric. The British Air Force for example would not buy half of it’s future combat force which was not network centric or not interoperable with the US and our other NATO allies!.
David Hamilton
Remember, the networking ability that he talks about is no different for any other similar a/c (read Shornet, Rafale, Su 30MKI, Gripen, MiG35), similar when it comes to active/passive countermeasures. IOW, the EF2000’s claims to stealth are a bunch of hype.
As far as going toe to toe vs the MKI, its going to have its hands full and will likely come out second best, today or in the foreseeable future. Furthermore, even if there is the unlikely “considerable” difference in RCS vs the MKI, it’ll be brought down considerably with EFTs and external payloads that the Typhoon has to carry. JMT
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThe weapon package includes 25 IRIS-T.
And I think the plan is to buy a handful of AMRAAMs to get an idea about BVR.
So basically, the QRA Typhoons have a pair of IRIS-T, but in general Austrian Typhoons can be considered unarmed. :rolleyes:
What version of the Amraam? I’m guessing it would be the B ver as an initial learning tool and since it’d be less politically sensitive?
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThe weapon package includes 25 IRIS-T.
And I think the plan is to buy a handful of AMRAAMs to get an idea about BVR.
So basically, the QRA Typhoons have a pair of IRIS-T, but in general Austrian Typhoons can be considered unarmed. :rolleyes:
What version of the Amraam? I’m guessing it would be the B ver as an initial learning tool and since it’d be less politically sensitive?
Regards,
USS.
Sign In
