BVR performance depends on a lot of other factors.
To achieve the first look you need a good situational awareness this is primarily achieved by the aircraft’s sensor but also its MMI. The Typhoon has an edge here over most other fighters. The signature are important too and here the Typhoon has definitely an edge over any of the teen series examples.

AS far as the MMI goes, it is very difficult to say how much better SA it would provide compared to the Rafale, Hornet or even the MiG 35. If cockpit pics are anything to go by, it is debatable whether the typhoon will automatically provide better SA. A 2 seater MKI for example, will provide excellent SA simply because of the fact that 2 pilots will reduce workload.
As far the RCS of the typhoon goes, how much better is it really after external weapons and drop tanks. further more, the F18 e/f (and infact most other birds such as rafale and even the MiG 35) is supposed to have incorporated some major RCS reduction measures.

Making the first shot requires a good weapon, reliable identification, good ECCM and flight performance. In contrast to what you suggest about Typhoon’s flight performance the aircraft offers a partitially significant better overall performance than the teen series.

In certain areas, yes. That’s confirmed by a couple of pilots which also compared the aircraft to F-15, F-16 or MiG-29 which they have flown. All of them said that you can already feel the difference without exactly measuring the performance to notice a difference.
what model eagles, falcons or fulcrums did these pilots fly? The MiG 35 for example, come with a super TWR and an already legendary aerodynamic frame.

The Typhoon’s DASS is one of the most advanced and comprehensive in the world an there is no teen series fighter with an equal EWS. The only compareable platforms are new generation designs such as the Rafale or F/A-18E/F.

I would agree so long as you compare the DASS suite to the blk 50/52 falcon or early model flankers/fulcrums. for eg, the falcon edge suite that the blk 60 got is supposed to be one of the very best too. Again, the EW suite on the MKI uses a combination of technologies provided by different vendors. How do we know that such an EWS is not as good as the Typhoon and even better. basically, it tends to offer very similar stuff.

Multiple sensors, sensor fusion are other features, though these technologies become partitally available upgraded teen series.

thats my point, once the legacy jets start getting some major upgrades, the Typhoon really starts to lose its edge. This is being increasingly seen with the extensive upgrades for export model flankers and fulcrums and falcons.

No one can currently really say that the Typhoon’s BVR performance is second only to the F-22,

I agree here. but i’d also include the JSF.

but the probability that it is so can’t be excluded and is much higher than for most other platforms in question.

I disagree here, we have absolutely no idea what the other platforms offer vis a vis the typhoon or how to measure their secret features (EWS, ECM, Sensor fusion) against the Typhoon’s. For eg. the Rafale (at least based on external looks) seems somewhat more stealthy than the EF2000, moreover it uses a more advanced technology in its radar (mech vs pesa), ditto with the Bars NO11m and the MKI. Even the upcoming MiG 35 is supposed to have an AESA.

One seriously wonders if the EF2000 is worth the cost, esp. with extensively upgraded legacy platforms (russian and american, the M2k-5 would have been a good competitor against the Typhoon as well, but unfortunately the French didn’t do as much with it as the Russkies/Yanks did with the F16s/MiG29s).

Regards,
USS.

The E-3 (B707 AWACS) fitted with 20 Phoenix missiles in an internal weapons bay would make a decent BVR-fighter, too. An F-4 fitted with newest radar and AMRAAM would also be a decent BVR-fighter. What does it need to be a decent BVR-fighter?

Among other things, hi speed, fabulous turn rates, low rcs (internal weapons if possible). I’m afraid your idea of the E3, won’t work because on most criteria above it comes up short:D BTW, I was talking in context of not just BVR but air combat in general. WVR included.

Actually, from that perspective, the RAF should have kept their Tornados.
obviously they have not, i’m sure they know why.

Like I said, I’m not dissing the EF2000, i’m just seeking clarification from fact and hype/fiction and thanks to some informative posts, i’m getting a decent idea.

Regards,
USS>

Regarding the CAPTOR-M performance, the two sources I just looked up (Eurofighter-Starstreak and Airpower.at) talk of “well over 160km” for fighter sized aircraft and “up to 185 km for supersonic fighters” (translated from German) respectively.

Are those “DETECTION” or “TRACKING” ranges? If its tracking, then its absolutely amazing, russian Pesas like the Bars will likely fall short before something like this. And the Rafale with the RBE2 may as well just stay on the ground rather than engage a Tyfoon with such a radar. If its detection, it pretty much has something that none of the other well known slotted arrays have. Detection ranges (approximate)for other slotted arrays on fighter sized targets (3-5 sqm):

Zhuk M: 130km
RDY 2: 120km
EL 2032: 140km
ApG 68v9: 110km

Regards,
USS.

And what could the MKI’s radar bring to the party that the APG-63V2 AESA and APG-79 AESA doesn’t?

Dunno, ask the USAF, they might know, considering that they invited the flankers in the first place.

The MKI Vs Raptor deal is pointless, it would be much better to see how the MKI fares against the Rafale or Typhoon. The last one is slated to meet the MKI in July. Typhoon Vs MKI – Heh heh all bets are off! :diablo:

REgards,
USS.

Jeez, Sealord, please make up your mind:
In post # 353 you point out:

That is exactly my point Joey, it is too early to say that the programme as a whole has failed and one can not say that it has succeeded yet.

IOW you seem sensible enough to suggest that the judgment on whether the LCA is a full success is still out (at least in the short term).

Then you totally contradict yourself by wholeheartedly supporting Scooter’s claim that

“I think you would have to call the program a failure……”

by saying

Exactly- its not like we are asking for much!

So then what is it?

Man, if you are pro chinese just say it. No harm there. There is plenty to be proud of, no reason to throw dirt on others in order to buff up your position.

Regards,
USS.

A well reasoned answer and you make valid points.

However, the more basic fact is thus- that over the course of its development, the MKI has so many significant differences from the basic Flanker, that its simply not practical to even attempt to convert one a standard Flanker into the MKI.

Simply put, its an all new aircraft, with its own development path. Which is the exact point I was making to Sea Lord, whose glib reply would make it appear that the differences are but a matter of subsystems and new engines and fancy gizmos.

In a recent submission to the Indian Standing Committee on Defence, the Ministry of Defence has clarified, that the Indian Su-30 K’s cannot be converted into MKI Mk3s. Simply put, external similarities apart, the MKI Mk3’s internal structure has been extensively beefed up (for instance), to make it take the Al-31FP’s and the Bars radar. You can well imagine the stress on the airframe when the MKI goes through its TVC routine.

That is the basic point, that a full blown MKI Mk3 is not a simple transition with plug and play canards, TVC engines and whatever Russia threw in.

To further emphasize what Nick is trying to point out, the original batch of 18 Su 30k are now to be completely replaced by new build Su 30 MKIs instead of trying to upgrade the same.

Regards,
USS.

those pics are beautiful! The jag has a superb finish or is it one of the newly built ones? Singapore does seem to live up to its reputation as a v.clean place…even the airbase and birds look squeaky clean 🙂

Scooter,

Regarding your assertion that Pakistan gets free weapons as a reward for the war on terror – Is this the only way they can reward pakistan? err perhaps helping out on the economy and stabilizing that area might help more against the war on terror than weapons that are completely india centric? What the heck do they dole out free hawkeye types for? catch osama? Basically, they leave india no choice but to pursue a strong defence acquisition program, IOW fuel an arms race.
Anyway this can be argued forever so i’ll just drop it.

point 2:

Currently, both the Rafale and Typhoon are more advance and technically superior to there Russian cousins. As current Russian types are just upgraded 4th Generation Aircraft (i.e. Mig-29/35 and Su-27/30)

Thats one debatable conclusion – are the Eurobirds are 5th gen? They are basically 4th gen with a little shaping here and there. The Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen as of today have slotted array – pesa radars, NO long range AAMs (like AMRAAM) in an indian context, and all carry external weapons – How is that different from either the MiG 35 or the Su 30MKI. Both the MiG 35 and MKI include some major changes to the airframe and a lot of RCS reduction measures, (the su 30 is believed to have achieved an RCS of around 1-3 msq). Further, the MKI carries an exceptionally powerful PESA from some of the earliest PESA makers around, it consists of fully functional avionics and ECM systems that are currently doing in service duty, which the EF2000 has not yet achieved (or has it just recently?), also, is the EF2000 cleared for A2G?
Topnotch Russian radar, Indian MCs and Israel derived ECM shows have been beautifully integrated in the MKI and I seriously doubt the Eurobirds can top it despite the fancy acronyms. And yes, the system is fully functional and available as of TODAY! oh and did I forget to mention that little tidbit about TVC?

Regards,
USS.