uss noviceFor two years I have being saying soon. Suffice [it] to say I will stop saying soon.
Thank GOd, I was getting tired of this Verry Soon business. Rather say “whenever”. I’m kinda glad that the PAF is getting F16s, it should make the Indians act a lot faster!
Nick, perhaps the Russians might reconsider if the buyback involved flankers (this would mean more $$$ for them). The IAF would be boosted with about 260 MKI, NO MiG 29s whatever and that gives them the option to choose a brand new type (Rafale/Hornet) for the MRCA or perhaps just make the MRCA all customized M2k-5/9MKI? But yes, the experience involved in maintaining the MiG 29s would kinda be wasted.
Anyway, its pointless …I know its NOT going to happen considering that Baaz upg deal has already been signed.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceDid you get my PM?
Roger that. Never check that feature, didn’t even know I was getting messages there – shows you how much i’m with such things 😮
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceNo fighter could track anything at 500 km… By the way, you think that a fighter radar (Bars has a power of 8 kW) would match a AWACS radar (the power of E 3 radar is 1MW, that’s 1000 kW)?Even if directed by Su 30, I fail to see how a Bison/Baaz/M2k would be undetected by an AWACS. Yeah, sure… A Bars in a tail of a Su 30???? I think you don’t know you are talking about.
Perhaps not track but surely could detect? The soon to come IRBIS is slated to detect 3msq fighters @ 350 odd km. So what does that do to a bomber sized airframe?
As far as the a Bars in the Flanker tail, it was admittedly a fantasy 😀 Thought if they can modify the airframe, perhaps there is a possibility?
As far as snipe attacks on AWACs, if these were not possible at least to some extent, what is the point of developing something like an “AWACs Killer” KS 172 missile with a range of 400 km? Agreed that it would be pointless to try a stunt like that with bisons or m2ks (dunno what I was thinking), but with flankers carrying LRAAMS, it might be a good idea @ very high speeds. Kinda shoot and scoot before the enemy AWACs can vector its fighters for a shot at the flankers.
REgards,
USS.
uss noviceAnd what would Russia do with those older MiG-29 versions? Why would it want to refurbish and find customers for them on its own coin?
Sell them to Yemen? 😀 In fact did Russia not offer something similar with the Foxbats and Su 30ks and IIRC even MiG 21s? THink about it like this:
Say the total cost of 70 MiG 29M/35 type = $ 2.2 billion, IAF pays about $ 1.5 bln hard cash and the rest through buyback. It still offers MiG plenty of $$$ + a/c that it can offer to other countries (which are unable to afford brand new birds and cannot rely on Western supplies). Its probly not the easiest and the greatest margins for the MiG guys but still there can be decent profit and much needed cash flow.
IAF of course lands up paying about $600 mil more, but for a/c that are brand new and offer some distinct advantages and perhaps a few extra numbers as well.
RayR,
Ya I forgot to mention the AAR ability on the new Fulcrums. Also, I believe combat radius is defined differently from just plain “Range”. Combat Radius: Range based on mission parameters, defined with typical a2a/a2g loads and mission profile such as hi-lo-hi etc. It is always and by definition lesser than pure Range which is the max all out range of the a/c. As an example, while the max range of the Super Hornet on internal fuel ~ 2500km, its Combat Radius might be around 800 km.
IOW, a 850 km combat radius on the MiG 29k sounds excellent.
Just my take on the two concepts, expert opinion and correction is more than welcome.
REgards,
USS.
uss noviceI thought all IAF Su 30Ks/Mks were sent back to Russia to be replaced by MKIs? I s’pose it is done in a phased manner? So what happens in the near future when IAF holds exercises with different countries, no fielding Mkis? doubt it, they probly will never show all the capabiilities of the monster, but they will surely field it. I wonder if they ever use it as AWACS against other AWACS:
AT what great distance will Bars NO11M Mk3 detect/track a radiating AWACS (probly 35 msq rcs?) – 500 km? That should give the Su 30s plenty of SA and enable them to use their advantages to the fullest extent – possibly direct passive attacks using Bisons/Baaz/even M2k? IT would be a totally awesome situation in favor of IAF Su30 MKIs once they get KS 172s operational. Detect AWACS ~ 400-500km, guide a couple of MKIs in passive mode to closer range and fire away 2-3 KS 172s !! V.v. little chance for legacy jets IMHO, designed with LO or not.
ONly real stealth a/c would probly overcome this type of a scene.
Always wished the IN had pursued an AWACS model for the Su 30 esp. to use on their carriers. Heh, heh a modified Su 30MKI with a Bars in the Tail sting would give ’em almost 360 deg coverage, even if it is at the expense of fuel, perhaps rig them to carry 2 drop tanks + array of missiles: 2 drop tanks, 1 brahmos (under fuselage), 2 KS 172s, 4 R77, 2 R73s :diablo:
JMT.
Regards,
USS
uss noviceAnother BIG advantage to the LCA IMHO:
Since they are locally produced, the procurement process will be a LOT faster. None of the RFI/RFP crap applies to multi billion $$ purchases so long as they are from within the country.
RayR,
The MiG 29 upgrades will bring it up to SMT+ standards, it cannot be brought to the M standard simply because the M is a different airframe and has different engines RD 33 Mk (which i’m not sure will fit the original airframe). The recently concluded deal was for the RD 33 ser3 engines, which is what is used for the upgrade to SMT standards. I’m guessing you will have:
1) Payload increase upto 4500 kg (as in SMT)
2) Range increase upto 2000km + on internal fuel (as in SMT)
3) Zhuk M radar with decent A2A and SAR capabilities. Pit had mentioned somwhere that they are working on getting the resolution to 1meter on the zhuk M.
4) Avionics fit consisting of Indian Tarang RWR, Computers, Radios, Israeli EL 8222, French LRG, Russian MFDs?
5) I’m wondering what HMS it will use? Will it go the Sura way or the IN MiG 29k Topsight E suite?
6) Improved IRST
7) Considerable increase in airframe and engine life
Overall, it would provide an excellent upgrade and a decent counter to any Blk 52 IMHO
However, I’d have liked to have seen some kind of buyback deal wherein the existing birds are replaced by brand new MiG 35s or Ms (even if based on the same radar). Shouldn’t have cost much more since they already are doing the upgrade for ~ $900 million.
REgards,
USS.
uss noviceThat’s imposing sanctions, combined with lying about it. That sort of crude trickery gets its practitioners looked down on.
Please, if you think a subtle rap on the hands is “crude trickery”, whats offering one of your best customer’s enemy a technology that can compromise the former’s security? And this after India just inked the Scorpene and Airbus deals (well over $ 5bln). Daft, shorsighted profiteering at best and rude, highhandedness at worst. OTOH, if france sabotages the Marlin deal, India can continue to provide them excellent deals eg. give Snecma the 2 bln $ Kaveri deal, perhaps even some M2ks? As it is they will get the upgrade order to the Dash 5 standard (i’m sure it will be well over a billion $) So what is more precious to them? A 1.2 bln $ deal for 3 subs at the cost of hurting an ally and excellent customer or a definite 1 bln $ deal + the potential for additional billions with a true and tried, albeit slow customer/ally?
Well, Israel has paid for all the weapons its got from the USA in the last 20 years (before that, some were gifts). But the USA gave Israel money to buy them with. Same here. Sometimes, Pakistan has bought US weapons with its own money, but in effect, all Pakistans US weapons are heavily subsidised by the US taxpayer. Odd that you think that making Pakistan pay full whack is more hostile than that.
To compare Pakistan’s relationship with the U.S. with that of Israel’s is not appropriate. They have a totally different nature – While Israel is far closer and exercises a decided influence on the U.S., the same can hardly be said for Pakistan. You can call pakistan a poodle, not so with israel. And Pakistan hardly gets anything from the U.S. as compared to the Israelis. Moreover, it is important to note the nature of the weapons offered to pakistan. Potent, no doubt, but any real threat, NO. Sure they offer Pakistan some goodies in exchange for being a poodle, but they offer india something far more potent. You can’t have a strategic relationship otherwise. In effect America is doing to Pakistan what France is doing to India. We offer you something good, oh but wait we offer your enemy something equally good or better. Why do you think the Pakistani’s are politely refusing the F16s?
Its a dangerous game in the subcontinent and not all countries like to be played.
France/Sweden need to pick a leaf from the Russians, don’t cut major weapons deals with Pakistan period. and enjoy huge deals with India.
REgards,
USS.
uss noviceBased on what the ACM has written to the Def minister, IAF wants 40 additional MKIs in a hurry. Seems like some of the demands of posters here are catching on…BIO might actually make PM after all (indians are not too concerned about nationality anyways) 😉
In his letter, the Air Chief Marshall has also requested the RM to spearhead the following:
Direct acquisition of 40 additional Su-30 MKIs from Russia on fast track.
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/indias-air-power-crashlands-may-lose-edge-to-pak/22834-3.html
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceTo sum up the above debate:
The Chinese:
J10 is obviously better, in fact there is no comparison – it is being produced in large quantities already while LCA is still an infant. J10 is not just better than LCA, it is easily better than FC 1 and perhaps even better than F16blk 52++, possibly even as good or better than the Euro birds like Typhoon and Gripen and Rafale.
The Indians:
All very well – and images are fine, but some concrete numbers and referenced sources please. IOW provide specs (as in specifics and not speculation)
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThere’s one difference you’ve not mentioned: the USA is giving Pakistan weapons, while France & Sweden are selling weapons. And you propose sanctions against France & Sweden, but not the USA? Tell me, why do you treat them so differently?
Nobody mentioned sanctions – I just propose:
1) letting them be high and dry for sometime until they get the picture i.e. no major purchases from them until they realize selling hitech stuff to Pakistan is not the most lucrative idea. Send them all the RFI/RFPs you want, but make sure they don’t win.
2) At a diplomatic level make it clear why this is happening…perhaps leak out a couple of “unhappy comments” from the Def ministry.
Also I thought pak “paid” for the F16 package. Some $ 5bln if some of the posters here are to be believed. Wasn’t that also the case with the original F16s they received in the 80s? And even if they do “give” weapons, it is always for a certain fee…eg. U.S. ops in Pakistan, using them as a base. IOW weaponry of not the greatest quality is given only in return for behaving like a poodle. No poodling no weapons 🙂 Just look at the number of veiled threats that a poodle has to put up with: “bomb you to the stone age”, GWB’s recent comment that he would have U.S. forces gun for bin laden in Pakistan if they find his location (irrespective of what the natives say) and then the whole thing about cruise missiles fired by the Clinton administration without giving any prior warning to the Pakistani govt (let alone seeking permission).
By the way, i’m not a great fan of U.S. policy either. They are playing with fire in case of Pakistan – they know it harbors terrorists, they know it has leaked out nuke tech, they know it is quite unstable, they know it has always been a dictatorship with no proper political or economic base and despite this they coddle it. However, I believe that this will change…..sooner than later the lid will blow off and then watch out. Added later: One can’t help but feel thatthe concept of natural allies (as in India & USA) will take new meaning soon enough, there are far too many common goals (and enemies) here to keep these 2 at loggerheads for too long
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThat topic was long settled USS !!
Hmm i’ll have to check the thread in more detail. I was just scanning through it and it caught my eye.
REgards,
USS
uss noviceyup LMA goes out , maybe even dassault ( do they help out with the mirage’s??) .
Swerve, BIO;
There is a clear difference between the U.S’s recent policy towards india vis a vis Pakistan. While offering Pak a few neutered f16 blk52s (which are already outmatched by the MKIs in IAF) they are offering India topotheline stuff (F18e/f F16NG). Compare this to what Sweden/france are doing – offering Pakistan top notch stuff and then expect to get deals with India? I see a clear line that is being crossed, you can’t offer my enemy stuff that can compromise my security decisively and then expect to get my $$$$. Sure Pakistan gets Agostas, India gets something better. That is strategic, you win some and lose some for a greater cause. But the deal with the Marlins and Erieyes is beyond this. Neither russian nor U.S. are currently doing that.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceHmm, Swerve does have a point. The draw back is the cost? How much do these birds cost? Instead of 50 S3s, I’d rather the IN beef up on its MiG 29k fleet – plenty of range and payload, can act as mini tankers as well – can make a pretty decent land based platform. Although the S3 would still have more range and carry more, the fulcrum offers far more options (true multirole). And if they are land based, perhaps they can make ’em lighter thereby increasing payload capacity. I’d love to see ~ 100 odd MiG 29ks under the IN flag. But then I’m just natcherly a Fulcrum fan. Really awesome a/c – and the newer modifications keep getting better. The K version is truly superb.
Regards,
USS.
uss noviceThe Apg-77 is humengous and offers great capability but the Viper is a smaller aircraft with a smaller nose . You cannot compare fighters the size of the F-22 and Su-27 with the F-16. Compare the Best radar available for the Mig-29 (operational zukh or bars29) and compare the detection ranges to Apg-80 and then you can appreciate it better . Ofcourse if we are comparing AESA’s then it is in the lower end of detection range however we have to be relative and look at the overall picture . According to atleast the published information and brochure ( which may not represent actual no.s i might add) the Su-30MKI’s current radar is about 10% better at 1m^2 target then the Apg-80 which speaks volumes of the latters capabilities .
BIO, you are the one who brought the Apg 77 in the picture, obviously it is a LOT bigger and offers corresponding advantages over the 80. Just to reiterate, the viper with the Apg 80 is undoubtedly very potent and it packs a mighty punch for its size – i’m impressed – really! Although, it didn’t come across that way before (thanks to some exaggerated numbers that I was subjected elsewhere). About MKI’s current radar capability (in the Mk3 with the indian processors), not much is known. The only published stuff I have found about the Bars (generic one) shows lock on (not detection) range of around 120-140 km, thats = to the detection range of the APG 80. IIRC, the detection range of the Bars ought to be a lot higher. Like you said, best not to compare the two…they are obviously not in the same class (as in size category).
Regards,
USS.
uss novice130 NM (230 odd km) is far greater than 110-130 km. NO comparison whatever. Yup i’m a fan of that apg 77, whatta beast! See of late i’m used to seeing larger radar specs throwing out tons of power and detecting little a/c at 250 or even 350 km (Irbis Bars NO11M). So 70 miles (110 odd km) does not sound that great. Whatsmore I had been at the receiving end of humungous numbers for AESA radars (albeit at other forums) so yeah 70 miles sounded a little pale, but still as you point out under the “constrained” circumstances in a Viper’s nose, that is a lot of sniffing ability.
And Nick, go and find some more Packy/Greeny stuff to beat up… stop playing the Devil’s Advocate. 😀
USS.
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